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@bsh1
That was more than a month ago.
Just to add. You are wrong there too. the time stamp for my second warning is:
11.11.2018 08:25 AM and among other things states :
By noting that you have reported the comment, you clearly intimate that the user being reported may be subject to moderator reprisals or punishment. For the purposes of the site's COC, this is not tolerated.
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That being the people of the time?No.. the gospels were written for their own times.
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@Mopac
Jesus cures the leper:
Mark 1 : 40 A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, “If you are willing, you can make me clean.”
Mark 1: 41 Jesus was indignant. He reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed.
Mark 1: 41 Jesus was indignant. He reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed.
Mopac wrote: That isn't what happened.
Then tell me what did really happen and why the bible doesn't tell the whole truth of what really happened?
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So you believe then that newly 21st century recruited and potential recruits to Christianity are the intended target audience when the scriptures state things such as "rising the dead" and other miracles such " he cured the leper"? yes OR no?Recent and potential converts to Cristianity.
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@bsh1
That was more than a month ago. Moderation has been making an effort to be more permissive lately, so the comment in question would not have resulted in a warning under current practices.
But will this/these warnings still stand against me should any disciplinary action be brought against me in future? As I have notice at post 41 above you state:>
Given the myriad warnings he received, including the notification that further COC violations were likely to lead to a temp ban.
What I am asking is, if using the word "stupid" which I have been warned for twice now would "not have resulted in a warning under current practices", then are these warnings still on my record or have they been scrubbed, or will they still be held against me in the future?
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@keithprosser
Keith, you made a claim. simply back it up.If you have a point, make it.
Who do you believe the "intended audience" to be?
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@bsh1
As for your other comments, they're not quite right. You were warned for threatening other members with reports and/or moderator action.
Not true. First Instance I simply warned I WOULD report IF the “offender" continued derailing my thread with his nonsense. I DID NOT mention “moderator action,” simply because I wouldn’t know about that end of any reporting, what happens, where the report goes, who handles it, what the outcome would be? No Only stated I would report if he persisted.
That is hardly threatening behaviour that constitutes a personal attack or insult, now is it. And it didn't bother the offender at all DID IT? , this is proven by the fact that he carried on derailing my threads regardless.
The Second instance is when nothing seemed to have deterred the “offender” so the I simply told him that “ I HAD reported him”and I got a warning over that. But even then as I have already stated I don’t know about that end of any reporting, what happened,where the report goes, who handles it, what the outcome would be. No I only stated that I HAD reported him in the second instance.
I have the PM’s if you can't recall them yourself. Shall I put them up for you on the open forum?
As for the notion that moderation is "hush hush," that's a bit silly.
Is it? This is why a whole new thread has been started on why someone has been banned and no reason given. It is open now of course only because the question was raised.
I
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It's intended audience.
And who were they, It's intended audience.?
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@PGA2.0
Why don't you make some of these formal debate challenges?
I am quite content debating and discussing my opinions right here in the open. Why should that bother you .
You keep making all these outlandish claims in thread after thread.I.e., Jesus Wasn't Dead When They Took Him Down From The Cross
Yes and? I have not seen nor read anything to prove otherwise.
The problem with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
There are as I have shown.
One God? It is simply Not True
It isn't true is it. the bible makes that undeniably clear.
Lazarus. The "raising".
Yes, and? Lazerus wasn't dead either and you cannot prove otherwise. I have shown it to be a symbolic ritualistic "raising" to a higher status and you don't like that .
Why was the NT Zacharias "struck dumb"?
Yes and?
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@keithprosser
Jesus cured no lepers.
Yes I know that. I have said so on a few threads now. I have even given my opinion on what I believe "curing the leper " actually means.
A story where he eradicated leprosy wouldn't be credible
To whom?
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@Mopac
If you don't like that answer, here is another.That isn't what happened.
Then tell me what did really happen and why the bible doesn't say what "really happened"?
Now here is a question for you. Who are you to judge?
Judge what? I am judging no one. I am scrutinising the scriptures and presenting what I find. this is debate (that you don't like) this is discussion (that you do not like)
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@RationalMadman
Good fucking riddance.
So, so hateful. And the rules state you should use F****** when using profanities.
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@EtrnlVw
In the right context they may all three be valid. It seems to me there are far too many snowflakes who simply go after the person instead of tackling the argument."your deluded", you're "mentally ill" you believe in fairy tales?
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@Outplayz
The other reason is probably bc he calls ideas he disagrees with stupid and other names.
I have had two warning about referring to someone as "stupid" and I have had a warning about letting someone know that I will be reporting them, and letting someone know I have reported them.
Personally I cannot see a problem with any of the above. "Stupid" is an oft word to use when some does actually act or say something that is stupid, It is probably the mildest of all insults. I have been called a lot worse on this forum and never complained before my warnings about these " breeches in my conduct", but I do know.
I cannot see how a friendly forewarning to someone that I will be reporting them, should warrant a warning given to me.
I also cannot see how telling someone that I have reported them, should warrant a warning given to me.
This is, to me undercover hush hush censorship. There is possibly every chance I will now get a warning about about revealing things about my warnings.. All very silly and very unnecessary.
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You mock and scoff, but this is a legitimate answer to you question.
How does this
Mopac wrote: "Because your arbitrary sense of personal aesthetics has very little to do with what is truly moral".
answer this? >
Stephen asked: Why didn’t Jesus simply eradicate all leprosy instead of curing just a few lepers?
Do you not see how deluded you have become, when silly replies like those you return go nowhere near answering a simple question that a child would ask.. You are simply incapable.
This question is obviously far too uncomfortable for you as you can see the silliness of the curing of lepers story falling apart in front of your own eyes.
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@janesix
I already did a thread on this here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506
And God said, Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness: Genesis 1:26
And there is the famous and no getting away from, Psalm 82 that clearly states;
Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.....
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
And there is the commandment where god refers again to other gods:
Exodus.20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me”.
Genesis 11:7
“ let US go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
Psalm 95:3
For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
Psalm 135:5
For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
This is not to mention that these gods had families; sons of gods when descended to earth and took the daughters of men as wives..
And there are many occasions in the bible where one god is ordering the death of those who have or are supporters of other gods.
Deuteronomy 6:14-16
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
15 (For The Lord thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
16 Ye Shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
So it's plain to see that there are other gods who were without doubt recognised and acknowledged by the Hebrew/ Judeo/Christian god. And this Hebrew./Judeo/Christian god is a self confessed “jealous god” and would kill and make to suffer for generations anyone who preferred one of these other gods to him.
Who will deny this pluralism?Well Christians of course.
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@Mopac
STEPHEN ASKED: Why didn’t Jesus simply eradicate all leprosy instead of curing just a few lepers?
Mopac RESPONDED: "Because your arbitrary sense of personal aesthetics has very little to do with what is truly moral".
We shouldn't laugh, put i can understand why some christians do invite mockery and ridicule.
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Why should I listen to you?
Oh get over yourself you clown. Your not that important that I beg responses from you. I haven't said you MUST respond to me have I? It is not compulsory for you to reply.. I don't care what you think about me of whether or not you answer any questions I pose. But you don't know that answer to my question do you?
What are your credentials?
What are yours? Shepherd or sheep? I'll wager you are the later wanting to be the former.
I would rather believe a Biblical scholar with a Divinity degree.
And a full blown christian bible basher, no doubt. I have studied these scriptures for over 45 years. I have found them to be unreliable, ambiguous and anomalous half stories as have many, many biblical scholars, lecturers and academics of religions.
The Bible is clear on this. Jesus is God.
No it isn't. And this doesn't answer my questions does it.
Nothing you say will ever change this.
hhahahahahhahahhah stop it , stop it!!!! my ribs are hurting.
WHY HAS MY FORUM POST COUNT STAYED AT 643 ALL THROUGH THIS THREAD THUS FAR?
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Looks like he's been banned. I wonder why, I haven't seen Goldie say anything too obnoxiously ban-worthy.
Me neither Jayne. I wonder why too? I disagree with things being done in a clandestine manner like this.
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Has Goldtop been banned? There is a line through his name.
and has anyone noticed that their post count is going down or staying still with each post and not going up?
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@Grugore
Stephen wrote:Jesus the Jew was never "deified" or worshipped as a god by Jews.
Grugore replied: Liar! Peter, a Jew and a disciple of Jesus, called Him my Lord and my God.
What have I lied about you clown? The Jews to this day do not! recognised, and have never, "deified" Jesus as a god. This is fact. They don't even recognise the New Testament as part of their culture or religion.
Tell me clown, what authority did this jewish fisherman have to ordain and "deify" Jesus the man as a god? He may well have called him lord and god, and master and teacher and RABBI, but he was a mere Jewish follower of no rank or status. Your trouble is that like all of you theist clowns is you jump the gun without thinking.
Who else called him God if he was regarded a such at the time he was living?. The population didn't even know who he was when he walked in the capitol, Jerusalem.
The Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end.
Do you even know what Jesus meant by that statement?
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@Mopac
Well, that's unfortunate.
Opinion. And you haven't even attempted to answer the question of a child above. You keep insisting I do knot know anything so explain this simple question and maybe we could start a dialogue of some sort.
Why didn’t Jesus simply eradicate all leprosy instead of curing just a few lepers?
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@Mopac
t's kind of hard to fake these things when the orthodox churches all trace themselves back to the apostles.
What are you talking about?
but the gnostic writings, even specifically the gospel of thomas were written about fairly close to the beginnings of the church.
Yes , and?
The Orthodox Church has kept track of these things fairly well.
Oh I see and it was the Church who discovered these ancient text hidden in the desert was it. Stop being silly.
And Stephen, you have to believe me when I say that your understanding of scripture is wrong,
I don’t have to believe you or anyone else.
and it is impossible to correct you because you don't accept the teaching of the church as valid.
I don’t accept the scriptures to be anywhere reliable.
In fact, you seem to think the church is up to no good.
It is the scriptures I have a problem with. I Don’t give two flying pigs about the church.
Well, that is why I don't correct me anymore,
NO! You cannot correct these contradictions is what you mean. You cannot explain the simple questions that children ask. Because it is simply impossible for you to do so.
because you don't believe me when I give you answers.
Telling me “god is truth “doesn’t quite answer questions such as - why didn’t Jesus simply eradicate all leprosy instead of curing just a few lepers. I can answer that question where you cannot.
You seem to already believe you know.
More than you
That is what gnosticism is at itscore. Knowingism.
I know.
Gnosticism is a heresy.
opinion
"God gives grace to the humble,but resists the proud."
Irrelevant.
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@Mopac
The church was aware of the so called"gnostic" scriptures, yes, even back when it was first written,
Some were known I agree, but thousands were not. The Dead Sea scrolls and the Nag Hammadi were recent finds in the scheme of things. I believe ( I haven't checked recently) that nearly all of the 900 DSS have been deciphered and translated. and the Nag Hammadi collection is revealing more interesting stories by the day.
and that is how they know, for example, that the gospel according to Thomas was not written by Thomas.
Silly clown. How do "they know"? It is not known with any certainty who wrote any single part of the Bible. The believed author are pure educated guesses at best and shots in the dark at worst. Then there are the hundreds of complete Gnostic gospels. Gospel of Mary, Judas and Jesus himself for examples.
This stuff is not as new or revolutionary as you think it is.
I know. This is why we living today can read these extremely rare and revealing critical scriptures without fear of being burned at the stake
Neo-gnosticism is just as much of an error as gnosticism back then.
As is any of the hundreds of different versions of the “official” Christian bible. Do you want examples of the thousands of errors contained in the “holy work” known tous as the Bible? And will you be able to answer any questions about these biblical errors, without repeating your mantra that "god is truth" for every reply to these questions?
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So while Jesus was deified 'quite early' the very earliest of Jesus' followers - and jesus himself - may not have done so.
Jesus the Jew was never "deified" or worshipped as a god by Jews. He was anointed king of the Jews and High Priest because of his pedigree and it was this that was the start of all his troubles.
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James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
What does that mean to you?
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The Church has never recognized The so called Gospel of Thomas as being legitimate. In fact, it was well understood even in ancient times as a fabrication of heretics.
Yes and I am sure had "the church" been aware of the gnostic scriptures they would have condemned then to the fire along with the millions of others. Thank god for the dead sea scrolls and the Nag Hammadi collection: We would never had known what "THE CHURCH" WAS TRYING TO HIDE , NOW WOULD WE.
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I would have been surprised if you orEthang were fans of my post!
You’re being silly, This is not about “victimhood”. I find some of your post interesting . But they are wasted simple because you don't believe them yourself. You admit to having fun speculating about ancient texts so you cannot be taken seriously in my opinion and your opinion doesn't count. I couldn't hold a conversation with you about something you have speculated because it would be a total waste of my breath when one takes into consideration, you don't believe what you say yourself. You have created a dilemma for yourself. stop playing victim.
What I hope is that some of my fellow atheists will see the OT/Bible is not the ramblings of ignorant goat herders fit only for toilet paper!
I have never suggested it is. Indeed, it is I who actually believe these stories and the characters therein as historical. I just don’t believe the bible ever tells us the whole story. Josephus fills in many of the gaps IMO.
I believe some of the stories/events are purposeful re-enactments of true events, staged and performed to the letter every 2,160 years approx. TO THIS DAY.
It is - IMO - the product of skilled propagandists and story tellers.
It could well be. But we will never know will we, “ we don’t have a time machine”. But where as you have made clear you do not believe a single word of the scriptures, I do,
There is barely an single unembellished fact in it,
I agree, but we will never know will we. The ancients could have just sat down and wrote the whole lot out of pure boredom or simply for the hell of it. Imagine. Coming up with the idea of the con, this swindle to deceive peoples of the future? So they could lead us all a merry dance 6,000years in the distant future.
but if you also read around the subject it reveals a lot about the ancient world and how religions work.
I know. But again, what could it possible teach YOU about the ancient world? You Say “read around the subject” as if other ancient text would be telling us the truth. You seem to be saying the bible text is nonsensical fairy tales on one hand but any other ancient text is believable.This is what I mean when I say you sit on the fence simply to be contrary, and for no other reason.
You don’t even realise what you did to yourself or what position you put yourself in when you dismissed these ancient text out of hand as fairy tale?
'They' being the descendants of Seth, not Adam and son.(ch9, para3).
I brought it up from memory prosser, I didn’t have to go scrabbling around the internet. But I have since got out my copy of Whiston's Josephus .Page 27 to read further from the quote:
Chapter 2: V 3: 9-10
"They Also were the inventors of that peculiar sort of wisdom which is concerned with the heavenly bodies, and their order. <<<<< You left that out.
So we can safely call this " peculiar sort of wisdom" Astronomy/ Astrology
and to continue
"And that their inventions might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire, and at another time by the violence and quantity of water, they made two pillars, the oneof brick, the other of stone: they inscribed their discoveries on them both,that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain, and exhibit those discoveries to mankind; and also inform them that there was another pillar of brick erected by them. Now this remains in the land of Siriad to this day".
So, Seth was the third son of Adam which makes him a descendent of Adam. Adam had had passed on something as he was able to tell what the skies - “heavens”had predicted and had erected brick/stone pillars to " exhibit those discoveries to mankind".
I suppose they did this for the sheer hell of it too, eh prosser?
But it is obvious that Josephus is retelling the familiar bible story.
Why is it “obvious” ? Why isn’t it a “familiar Mesopotamian story” that he is retelling?
Adam was from Mesopotamia. And there are 14 generations from Adam to Abraham whom was also from Mesopotamia and then ordered to leave.
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@keithprosser
By Avoiding the questions you do yourself a disservice. But I don't suppose that would concern you.
Whenever writing was invented, I Doubt if Adam, Abraham or Noah kept a diary.
They were certainly keeping some kinds of records as Flavius Josephus explained that both Adam and one of his sons were masters " of the strange science of the studying of the heavenly bodies ". So I am going to assume this meant Astronomy. The ancients were obsessed with it. And with good reason. It was their celestial calendar.
But You cannot accept this as you "weren't there" and we don't"have a time machine" and neither did Josephus. So with that in mind, anything you have to say on these ancient subjects doesn't count for anything. In fact your speculations are worthless .
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@Mopac
Well, I don't believe all atheists are the same. I think there are plenty who simply have been listening to and believing ignorant people.
Pot Kettle.
The Roman Catholic Church has done more damage to the name of Christ in their not so subtle attempts to make their Pope God.
Examples please.
Orthodox are a minority in the west, so their voice gets drowned out by those who have bad doctrine.
And your doctrine is as pure as the driven snow I presume.
I blame Rome.
Me too and also the works of the gospel writers chosen by the early christians to be include in the New Testament and who have disregarded many more truthful verses and versions.
Such as : The Gospel of Thomas Saying 114
(114) "Simon Peter said to them: Let Mariham [Mary] go out from among us, for women are not worthy of the life".
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@keithprosser
There was no one alive in the 6th century BCE to 'remember' events of thousands of years earlier.
Which is why things were written down to pass down through the generations, whether they are truths, half truth or simply blatant lies.
And the Mesopotamians were around hundreds of thousands of years ago depending on who and what historians –archaeological or anthropological - you wish to believe.
Nor were there written records of those times.
I wouldn’t be too sure about that considering it was you who brought archaeology into the thread.
The span of recorded history is roughly 5,000 + years, beginning with Sumerian Cuneiform script, some believe much older. One then has to consider how old the stories themselves are that they are conveying before they were committed to writing?
Gobekli Tepe image The Oldest Temple In The World: https://public.media.smithsonianmag.com/filer/e1/85/e1853b98-e2b8-4b66-9456-a0e0f646f97e/geico.jpg
"megaliths predate Stonehenge by some 6,000 years. The place is called Gobekli Tepe, and Klaus Schmidt, a German archaeologist who has been working here more than a decade, is convinced it's the site of the world's oldest temple.one of the most startling archaeological discoveries of our time: massive carved stones about 11,000 years old, crafted and arranged by prehistoric people who had not yet developed metal tools or even pottery."
One could conclude that if the are designing and building and carving massive stones about 11,000 years old, they must have had some kind of writing.
You mentioned what "archaeology and anthropology indicate", So, do you trust and or believe this German Archaeologist Klaus Schmidt's findings or not?
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Does anyone believethat the history of an entire nation can be replaced with myths and legends byPriests?
No I don’t. But it appears only Prosser is suggesting that.I believe the Old Testament is an incomplete history. There are for instancetwo giant leaps of around 400 missing years that cannot be accounted for justby reading the Bible.
Later archeologicalstudies have verified that the bible has real history.
I agree, they have.The Flood, The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The destruction of Babylon. But the question the prossers of the world would ask was can these archeologicalstudies be trusted. Not because it was a genuine statement or through any sort of reasoning, no , the prossers of the world would ask this simply to be contrary.
Keith thinks thesethings not for any logical reason, but because that is his bias.
You make a validpoint. But prosser cannot realy argue one way or the other about the bible now can he? He doesn't believe a single word of it, He can't really offer a honest opinion of what the bible is about, what it means or why it was written unless, as he says " we have a time machine".
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@keithprosser
I didn't say 'history' - I said 'myths and legends'. However the writers intended it to be taken as actual history.
You said " their version of history" . here is your full quote on the matter post 1 above
Clearly, that did not happen. I suggest the exiled YHWHist priests and scribes began writing the legends, myths and customs of the Jews (and the predecessors the Hebrews) in order to define, maintain and teach their version of history.
Just like other nations have done over the millenia. Like I have said , it amazes me the man hours that you must have spent piling over volumes of ancient history to come to the conjective conclusion that you reached on why the gospel writers wrote down these "bible stories "
For example, archaeology and anthropology indicate the blitzkrieg-like conquest of Canaan under Joshua never occurred.
And what are your sources for that statement ?
But we don't get real history in the Bible - we get a fiction created by YHWHist priests to serve thieir interests.
I agree. But you haven't begun to explain in any depth why these bible scribes wrote them in the first place, apart from stating the obvious.
What is the "real history" of the bible and what it contains within.seeing you don't believe any of it at all. And then and your sources?
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but I was close don't you think Gentle Reader?
You wasn't even anywhere near close you clown.. You misquoted me with intent to deceive the "Gentle Reader". This is what theist LIKE YOU do when caught on the back foot, THEY LIE AND DECIEVE.
Ethang5, Gentle Reader, just loves beating himself with his own stick. Is this some kind of Christian perversion ? Flagellation perhaps? I have to ask.
New Living Translation EXODUS 32: 9
Then the LORD said, "I have seen how stubborn and rebellious these people are.
Contemporary English Version EXODUS 32: 9
Moses, I have seen how stubborn these people are,
Good News Translation EXODUS 32: 9
I know how stubborn these people are.
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@keithprosser
I suggest the exiled YHWHist priests and scribes began writing the legends, myths and customs of the Jews (and the predecessors the Hebrews) in order to define, maintain and teach their version of history.
So your well thought out speculation brought you to the amazing conclusion that they wrote these things top preserve and teach their history.
I have to shake my head in wonder at the time you must have spent coming to the speculative conclusion Keith.
It may have slipped your mind that this is actually what people actually do when they want to actually preserve their history for future generations.
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@keithprosser
Stephen wrote; I would be very interested to read your speculations as to why the gospellers even took the time to write bible stories that "can be junked straight away.
Prosser wrote: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/700/post_links/31410
From the link above presented by Prosser
Prosser wrote: maintain and teach their version of history.
So your well thought out speculation brought you to the amazing conclusion that they wrote these things top preserve and teach their history.
I have to shake my head in wonder at the time you must have spent coming to the speculative conclusion Keith.
It may have slipped your mind that this is actually what people actually do when they want to actually preserve their history for future generations.
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@ethang5
New Living Translation EXODUS 32: 9
Then the LORD said, "I have seen how stubborn and rebellious these people are.
Contemporary English Version EXODUS 32: 9
Moses, I have seen how stubborn these people are,
Good News Translation EXODUS 32: 9
I know how stubborn these people are.
:::Face palm:::
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The text doesn't say stubborn! Stop lying! You want to change scripture. STIFF NECKED PEOPLE he called them.
I didn't say it does. I have said " that is to say stubborn, I ASSUME." Post 86 above.
STOP TRYING TO EDIT MY TEXT!!!! THAT HAS TO BE AGAINST THE RULES I AM SURE. IT IS SLY AND DECEITFUL.
I haven't lied. Stop trying to clever, because you are not and never will be. I wrote "stiff necked people" as the scripture states clearly and ASSUMED it to mean "stubborn". See the difference. By doing this you see, I have given anyone who chooses the chance to contradict and correct my ASSUMPTION on what I have taken "stiff necked" to mean. I notice you have failed to correct my ASSUMPTION" OF stiff necked".
So what does this god mean by the phrase " stiff necked people" , if not STUBBORN?
I'm going to play Stephen here.
And you have failed, you clown
stiff-necked
\ˈstif-ˈnekt \
Definition of stiff-necked
New Living Translation Acts 7:51
"You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That's what your ancestors did, and so do you!
Good News Translation Acts 7:51
"How stubborn you are!" Stephen went on to say. "How heathen your hearts, how deaf you are to God's message!
International Standard Version Acts 7:51
"You stubborn people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are always opposing the Holy Spirit, just as your ancestors used to do.
You really are sad and PATHETIC
AND
YOU JUST LOVE THAT STICK DON'T YOU. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH
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I'm guessing the Jewish Publication Society does not recognize the New Testament.
Good guess: as it seems a perversion of the actual truth of what was going on in Palestine at the time of Christ.
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@ethang5
God calls the Jews a "peculiar people". And they are.
He also called the Hebrews a "stiff necked people" that is to say stubborn, I assume.. No different to Christians then who like to rewrite verses they find embarrassing and controversial and go as far as to deny the existence of other prickly verses altogether.
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@EtrnlVw
did you think heaven was in the clouds lol??
No. I have said the Sumerians state similar. Astronomers often use the word heaven to describe space and realms and constellations as being in the “heavens”. The planets are described as “heavenly bodies” So there is absolutely no need for your childish sarcasm, get a grip.
but it's your problem not mine so don't get that twisted.
No. It is your problem when you are unable to explain what it is that you try to push onto and preach to others I find them problematic as in - you /Christians have a lot of trouble explaining away these anomalous and ambiguous half stories. So you make stories up of your own, you rewrite biblical passages and produce what isn’t even written and you give poor explanations for verses that do not make sense AT all on the surface.
Example John 11:16
“Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him”. Explain that!
I believe it is symbolic death that he being spoken of here but the fawning sycophantic clowns here believes that these disciples are asking to actually physically die.
I don't rely on the Bible being a perfect piece of work and so imperfections within stories and accounts have no relevance to me personally or my spiritual development.Does that make sense?
Only in the sense that it excuses you from explaining the anomalous and ambiguous half stories. : A - get out - in other words. You must think I am totally stupid.I am not.
But at least you have gone some way to admitting that these scriptures are “imperfect” whereas I have said they are unreliable to be taken on face value and as fact. And I am not interested in your “spiritual development” that is your business not mine. ButI do see you are trying to distance yourself from these arguments simply telling me that you don’t “rely on the bible being perfect”.
I take from it [the bible] what is useful and that is the only things that matter anyways.
And what are the useless parts that you discard?
The Bible was not claiming Jesus was out of His mind.
No, the bible is stating that his family, which included his mother had said he had gone out of his mind.Stop trying to put words into my mouth. Yet We have one poster here even denying that Mary was Jesus mother in this instance. . To deny this kind of thing is simply fanaticism at its worst.
The scripture states “family” and the for and aft verses state his mother was there to see him.
has your mother ever told you that you were out of your mind?
Irrelevant.
Jesus' mother was there with Him until the end, she supported His cause and mission.
Evidence please. She was at the birth obviously, and then she is almost completely written out of the narrative altogether until the crucifixion. So let me see your evidence of Mother Mary’s support.
And while we are on the subject of evidence, I am still waiting for you evidence of “some people” or “people murmuring”.
what actually is relevant to the individual.
I have said, I am not interested in the relevance to you and or the individual. I am only addressing and concerned with what is written in these unreliable scriptures.
So, if you can produce some blatant contradictions regarding what applies to the SELF,
You are coming apart from what I am reading here. What applies to one person doesn’t necessarily apply to another. What is considered relevant to one does not necessarily hold relevance for another. I am not interested in “contradictions of the SELF” or the " spiritual" and what they do for you; the individual. . These scriptures as I Have said, are simply unreliable to be taken on face value as fact.
I don't get"all" my information squarely from the Bible or Jewish scriptures
Good for you.
But do you understand them.
I do. And they have no reflection or bearing on my being spiritual SELF or otherwise.
you can always be a skeptic but at some point you will have to make a stand.
I have and I am not moving from my opinion without explanations or answers to my questions. So, AGAIN here's my stance that is to say - where I Stand - for the 20 billionth time:
THESE SCRIPTURES ARE UNRELIABLE. They are ambiguous, anomalous and are presented as half stories particularly in the New Testament. And no one has shown me anything to the contrary.
That again is my stance.
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@ethang5
That is why the loon did not mention the verse number,
Mark 3:21
When his friends heard it, they went out to seize him: for they said, "He is insane."
When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."
When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
New Living Translation
New Living Translation
When his family heard what was happening, they tried to take him away. "He's out of his mind," they said.
English Standard Version
English Standard Version
And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”
Berean Study Bible
Berean Study Bible
When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”
Berean Literal Bible
Berean Literal Bible
And those belonging to Him having heard, went out to seize Him; for they were saying, "He is out of His mind."
King James Bible
King James Bible
And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
Christian Standard Bible
Christian Standard Bible
When his family heard this, they set out to restrain him, because they said, "He's out of his mind."
Contemporary English Version
Contemporary English Version
When Jesus' family heard what he was doing, they thought he was crazy and went to get him under control.
Good News Translation
Good News Translation
When his family heard about it, they set out to take charge of him, because people were saying, "He's gone mad!"
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Holman Christian Standard Bible
When His family heard this, they set out to restrain Him, because they said, "He's out of His mind."
International Standard Version
International Standard Version
When his family heard about it, they went to restrain him, because they kept saying, "He's out of his mind!"
NET Bible
NET Bible
When his family heard this they went out to restrain him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
New Heart English Bible
New Heart English Bible
And when his family heard it, they went out to take charge of him: for they said, "He is out of his mind."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And his relatives heard and they went out to take hold of him, for they were saying, “He has gone out of his mind.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
GOD'S WORD® Translation
When his family heard about it, they went to get him. They said, "He's out of his mind!"
New American Standard 1977
New American Standard 1977
And when His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.”
Jubilee Bible 2000
Jubilee Bible 2000
And when his friends and family heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him; for they said, He is beside himself.
King James 2000 Bible
King James 2000 Bible
And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
American King James Version
American King James Version
And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
American Standard Version
American Standard Version
And when his friends heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible
And when his friends had heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him. For they said: He is become mad.
Darby Bible Translation
Darby Bible Translation
And his relatives having heard [of it] went out to lay hold on him, for they said, He is out of his mind.
English Revised Version
English Revised Version
And when his friends heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
and on and on and on it goes, telling us that his friends and family INCLUDING HIS MOTHER MARY though he was insane.
and on and on and on it goes, telling us that his friends and family INCLUDING HIS MOTHER MARY though he was insane.
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@ethang5
Jesus was the worlds first superstar.The bible tells us that everywhere
Except Jerusalem where no one in the "whole of the city" had ever heard of him .
"When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this?"Matthew 21:10
you just luuurrrrve that stick don't you . hahhahahahhahhaha
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So tell us, what crazy thing did Jesus do to make them think He was crazy? Can you say loony?
I asked you that. You haven't answered. WHY?
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@ethang5
I'll tell you again, I Am not catholic, and the verse does not mention Mary. Stop lying.
So are you now saying that Mary was not Jesus’ Mother? Are you YET again trying to rewrite the scriptures?
Marks Gospel
"There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him"."Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
"When his FAMILY heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
You really love that stick, don't you.
Jesus was the worlds first superstar.
I thought it was GOD capital? Or are you rewriting ancient history AGAIN?!!!!!
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@disgusted
I found it for him, disgusted. I knew he would jump on it out of all the other verses. straw clutching comes to mind.How long did it take for you to find one obscure translation that supports your idiotic claim?
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@EtrnlVw
You obviously dislike Christianity and the scriptures involved.
I have made no secret of the fact that it is the scriptures that I have a problem with. Do you see what I did there AGAIN? I have had to explain my stance for the billionth time.This is what I get annoyed about. I have no problem with Christians or Christianity and have never believed I could change their beliefs. I wouldn’t bother trying and that is not my intention. I feel sorry for those Christians Who have believed the stories presented as they are in the New Testament. So for the billionth a 2 times that is where I stand on theist and the scriptures
Either that or you aren't qualified to interpret them in a legit way because you do not apply spiritual things to yourself?
No it is “that”. But I notice you too have added remarks on my “qualifications” to read and “interpret”these anomalous, ambiguous half stories, that make up these extremely unreliable scriptures. I have an opinions and I have questions. Nothing qualifies you any more than me to interpret these stories any better or worse.
Gospels mention"some" people murmured amongst themselves that Jesus was out of his mind.
I have presented verses from many bibles concerning Jesus’ state of mind. You have presented nothing that states any such thing as you claim as “some people” or “people murmuring”. But even if you could, this again would show the inconsistencies that lay within these scriptures.
you interpret that as everyone believing Jesus was crazy.
No I have PRESENTED what is written. He may have or may not have been “crazy”. His mother, the Holy Blessed among All Women Mother Of God and Jesus’ siblings seemed to agree with their mother that he had lost his mind. THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING
We have to discuss those contradictions and whether or not they actually matter in relevance to the soul.
Well that would be up to you what the “relevance “ of these blatant contradictions actually means to you. But “relevance to the soul” is just swerving the issue. First you have to admit they are there and that they are in fact contradictions.
But the “relevance” to me shows, NO, proves , that the scriptures are unreliable and cannot be taken on face value.
Heaven is an ACTUAL planet,
The Gospel of Judas say similar but this lost gospel calls it a realm named Barbelo, but I would settle on "planet" because the ancient Sumerians relate something similar.
But again the problem we have here is that old Christian adage “ if it ain’t in the bible it ain’t true. And you infer THAT I ! have misread and misinterpreted AND misrepresented and that I don’t know my arse from elbow.
I am better read than you give me credit for my friend and and I can assure you; these ancient biblical scriptures I am well read in.
Try selling " Jesus was from another ACTUAL planet" to Mopac or Ethang5, Mopac keeps inferring that "Jesus is an alien".
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@BrutalTruth
It describes it [ god] as:spirit, light, love, and a consuming fire, not as a physical being.
It may well do in themind of the fawning sycophantic theist who cannot actually tell us what”god” is or answer some basic questions about “god”. Or what even Heaven is although the words is written in the bibleover 550 times. But that said the fawning sycophantic theist often tellsus that Jesus is god.
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is it just the Bible you dislike?
That has nothing to do with the thread. But I find the bible a fascinating read and always have. I hope that answers your question.
whereas at first you seemed somewhat polite.
It gets tedious having to repeat ones stance on the bible every time I have question or an opinion and I will admit frustration sometimes does, but rarely, creeps in. Particularly when I am repeatedly told that any fault lies with me, that I don't understand the scriptures or I am reading them wrong or have mistranslated them and many other ridiculous reasons for the theist not to have to explain away a biblical ambiguous anomaly. It is not hard to work out that some of the theisit here haven't read much- if any - of the scriptures that they are so eager to defend.
Take those contradictions above; just a few of hundreds contained in the bible that fawning sycophantic theist deny even exist never mind try to explain.
Take the word Heaven: it is mentioned in the Bible over 550 times yet not a single resident theist here can explain what it is or where it is, yet the bible quite clearly states that it is occupied by some kind of beings of one sort or another and many christians believe a war once took place there and a devil was cast down from it?
So where is heaven? what is heaven? are you going to answer?
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Nothing makes them happier than trying to get more people to spend eternity in hell with them. Fools.
Nothing makes me " more happier" than to watch you try your damndest to explain away the many unexplainable passages in the bible.
Try these on for size.
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
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