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@ethang5
Where does Zacharias once call this messenger a liar?
ethang5 >>> "God can read hearts genius. Plus Zacharias said, "I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years." If you weren't ignorant, you would know that women cannot get pregnant after a certain age, and Zacharias was doubting that what the angel said could be true".
No, Not once did Zacharias doubt anything and you cannot show me where he did. You are being silly. And stop calling me ignorant just because I don't agree and go along with your beliefs and fantasies.
The whole story surrounding the Baptist is as strange and puzzling one from start to finish.
ethang5>>>"Because you are ignorant of Hebrew history and female biology. Most of the world is puzzling to the ignorant".
Now your talking sense.. in part. The gospel writer here has indeed re-hashed an Old Testament story, something they do often.
So why was this old devout priest Zacharias "struck dumb"
ethang5>>>He asked for proof that indicated the story was true. He got it. He should have known the story of Abraham and Sarah and kept his mouth shut.
Again not true and the story is there to read for those who want to bother to read it. He didn't ask for proof of anything and you cannot show me where he did....
his poor old aged and barren wife forced to "hide herself away"?
ethang5>>>Because no one would believe she was pregnant at that age and would assume disease and become concerned and alarmed. Think man.
Again spouting anything that comes to mind without a single piece of evidence.
There was no reason at all for this poor servant of god to have such an infliction put upon him or for his wife to have to hide away especially when we read further that they were both sinless and blameless here read it yourself>>.
“both were righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless [sinless]” all their lives.
Your excuses are as miserable as all your other excuses. The thing here is you simply don't have the answers to awkward and difficult questions.
I do agree though, that New Testament writers just love reaching for their trusty Old Testament for stories to rehash and bring into their own present time. Sometimes they didn't stop as simply rehashing these stories, they would go all the way and recreate them. Like the one you mentioned Genesis 18 . That story is so identical to the Zacharias/ baptist story with the only difference was the names and neither Sarah or Abraham was punished for laughing and doubting. And Sarah wasn't even punished for lying saying she "did not laugh". I ask the reader here to read and compare the two so similar versions for themselves, should they even care to know.
Luke 1:5-25
Genesis 18:9-16
It is my belief that Zacharias wasn't "struck dumb" at all, but rather, was told to keep his mouth shut. And that Elizabeth wasn't even pregnant at all but had taken on a mother role to a bastard John to pass him off as her own. This is why she "hid away". It was all to do with a sinister plot to take over a future kingship of Jerusalem. I believe the baptist and Jesus were rivals, and that it would all come to a head down at the river Jordan some 30+ years later.
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Occasionally the New Testament often expects its readers to suspend the laws of nature and expects its readers to accept without question what is being conveyed and the conception of John the Baptist is yet another one of those occasions.
The story goes that the old and aged priest Zacharias is going about his priestly duty in the temple one day and out of the blue an "angel" (messenger)appeared to him with news that his old and aged and barren wife will soon be hearing the patter of tiny feet.
And, as would any normal mere mortal, Zacharias queried ;>
Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
And for simply asking this obvious question,this poor devout priest who had served his god for years was told;>
And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak,until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.
Where does Zacharias once call this messenger a liar? he doesn't. Where does this poor priest even doubt this messenger? he doesn't. Where does he even dispute this miraculous event? he doesn't.
The whole story surrounding the Baptist is as strange and puzzling one from start to finish.
So why was this old devout priest Zacharias "struck dumb" and his poor old aged and barren wife forced to "hide herself away"?
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@ethang5
If you know John had already been beheaded, are you lying when you claim John was still alive?
I am questioning the chronological order of Marks version of events. And you know I was. You submit "past tense" to Marks unfathomable version.
So tell me why would Mark need to speak in a past tense?
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@ethang5
And there is a Math 16.17. Read slowly.
talk about "confusion"!!!!
WHAT ABOUT "MATH 16:17?
It has no bearing whatsoever on the subject matter of Herod and the beheading of the baptist.
Matthew 16:17-20 King James Version (KJV)
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
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@ethang5
The only thing youhave shown is that you don't know what past tense means in language. If Herodsays, "whom I have beheaded", that means he has already beheaded him.
I know, here read for yourself MARKS gospel>>>
Mark 6:16 But when Herodheard thereof, he said, It isJohn, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.
And it also means that MARKS gospel has him saying this before hisbirthday and the request of Salome his step daughter.
There is no17 in Mark gospel, and I am only concerned with Marks gospel. You insisted Ihad Mark and Matthew confused. I am not confused. This is about Marks sequence ofevents, stop trying to weasle and worm your way out of the glaring anomaly in MARKS gospel as there are in ALL of the four gosples.. out of it. If I was really being sarcastic and "obtuse" I could have asked - how many friggin heads did John the Baptist actually have?
John was dead Einstein,
Indeed and Mark says so and has JOHN DEAD BEFORE Herod’s birthday bash.
I will continue tobelieve the Bible thank you.
I don’t doubt that for a second.
According you you, Jesus= lord of lords = Jesus is god =Jesus is god of gods although you say there is only one god.
The confusion is all yours, ethang5
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@ethang5
the Bible was going into the past, which is why it used the past tense through out.
Why do that? It didn't need to use "past tense" at all. Your problem is that I have shown you a glaring anomaly and contradiction in Mark.
First you accused me of getting two gospels mixed up. When I showed you and proved to you that I wasn't and showed you the original written sequence in MARK , then, just as I expected, you come up with the BS excuse for this anomaly.
this is where your ignorance kicks in.......Verse 17 then goes into the past,You are confused. The different gospel books are writing about the same story, not citing a new story.
Now who is being IGNORANT!? THERE IS NO MARK 17!!!!!!!! NOW WHO IS "CONFUSING" TWO GOSPELS????
You are correct, I am not dumb. Any scribe worth his salt would not have started this story with a haunting. Why would Mark talk of a haunting well before John was dead. And IF there was a "verse 17" to the gospel of MARK what would be the point of writing of John's arrest AFTER the haunting and BEFORE John's beheading? Your excuse is utter rubbish and you are clutching at straws here, and you know it.
Surely, common sense would have the sequence _ John is arrested, John is beheaded and John haunts herod. AND NOT - John haunts Herod, John is beheaded and John is arrested? the sequence is backwards and inside out with absolutely no reason for it to be.
My point is - and you are well aware - is that the scriptures true or not, are a jumbled mess of vague half stories, anomalies, hints and contradictions that are confusing unless they are studied in depth and not just read and believed at first glance as you and many others seem to have done and do or simply because you have been told this is the truth.
I am not questioning your faith, I believe that you believe these sometimes strange anomalous and contradictive stories. This is not a personal attack on you or your faith, so try and separate the difference between me scrutinising and questioning the scriptures without calling me names and trying to have me down as a troll and of being obtuse, just because I see these scriptures from a different angle and point of view.. I am a thinker, I am a questioner, I am a scrutinizer and I do know the scriptures pretty well and i know they are a jumbled mess that have to be studied and scrutinized and simply not just believe through sheer faith. And YOU Christian, shouldn't hold that against me.
I simply do not accept your excuse for the great anomaly in Mark's gospel concerning Herod and the beheading of the Baptist. And you should accept that Marks version of events simply cannot be true.
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@Mopac
Christianity is Truth worship. It is all about the personal relationship one has with The Truth
Don't be so ridiculous!. Since when did Christianity or religion come to that, believe itself to have the monopoly on the truth. One doesn't have to be a Christian to understand and know what truth is. Atheists can be perfectly morally clean living and hold truth above all things.
You are just bible bashing once more and taking the religious moral high ground. You have no more understanding of the truth than does the truth of a wild animal who knows it can eat or be eaten.
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@Mopac
but you can spend an entire life studying the bible.
One can indeed. But you seem to be very shallow in what you have "studied".
I am very well studied.
Then I am sure you will agree that in this day and age of super technology , it is very hard to test someone's acclaimed knowledge on matters such as the Bible and religion as a whole, where answers to most of the common and obvious questions usually asked are at the end of a mouse for the one being questioned. Whereas the more deeper, better thought-out questions become far too deep & difficult for many christians to answer. There is also context that can become difficult.
I for example read the baptism of Jesus as a serious and perhaps deadly confrontation at the river Jordan between John and his cousin Jesus. Whereas someone like yourself beyond doubt reads it as you have been taught/told to read it , that being, John being submissive and believing himself someone not worthy to tie the sandals of Jesus.
Jesus never did explain where John had got his authority from , did he? Yet John continued to gather disciples of his own.
There are a lot of people who are very well studied too who have radically different views.
I believe I am one of those. I believe that the Christ ( christos = amointed) existed, I believe that he believed he was a rightful king AND priest, I believe he was of one of many noble bloodlines. I believe that if he was a messiah , he failed miserably at the mission of what was believed and expected of a messiah and I also believe there were more than one SO CALLED god who left this earth thousands of years ago.
I am not religious in the slightest . And I believe that some of these so called gods were more benevolent than others. This is why we can clearly see a difference between the so called god of the Old Testament & the New Testament. Is that radical enough for you.
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@ethang5
So until you mention a contradiction, there isn't one.
Ok. To those who are reading here. Read this exchange and spot the glaring contradiction between these two posters.
Post 50--> @ethang5
Jesus is referred toas the Lord of Lords. As in, the Lord to whom other Lords bow.
reader lease note "other lords" plural
Post 59--> @ethang5
I suspect Jesus waited for His mission to be completed and all things placed under Him to assume the title, Lord of Lords......
Again above we have the Plural " Lord of Lords"
Are you asking if Jesus is God? The answer is yes......
Here above we have ethan5 informing us that Jesus, lord of lords (plural)is also god.
Jesus is God, as such He is superior to everything and everyone,
And above, once more, he makes it perfectly clear to all those reading here that jesus is god.
Post 63 Paul to >.
Added: 09.13.18 10:13AM
--> @Paul wroteyou, I think Jesus is Lord is the same as saying Jesus is God, it just makes a lot more sense.Jesus is God does not divide God separate entities which has the advantage of avoiding any implications of polytheism.
"Avoiding polytheism" i.e.that there maybe more than one god.<<<<<< keep that in mind, reader.
and at Post 66--> @ethang5 agrees with Paul's deductions
Exactly.There is only one God. Always has been only one,and always will be only one.
Post 69 ethang5 wrote;
Jesus was God, the bible says so, and you cannot change that.
Paul at post 63 stumbles blindly into a contradiction. And at post 66 ethang5 simply contradicts himself and paul. Ethang at post 66 also has contradicted posts50&59&69
If as BOTH these members agree that Jesus = Lord + Lord of Lords and that the Lord Jesus is God this would, by default. mean that Jesus is god of gods PLURAL. But we have it above in many quotes from ethang5 that there is "ONLY ONE GOD"?
ethan5 appears to be a man who simply wants it both ways, a man who literally wants his cake and eat it.
UNLESS,of course, he reads and believes the Old Testament which clearly shows on many occasions that there are indeed more than “ONE GOD”. Second thoughts, that wouldn’t help him either, because he would have to retract his statement that “there is only one god”. Deary me, ethan5 is in a dilemma
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@ethang5
You are confused. The different gospel books are writing about the same story, not citing a new story.
No, it seems it is you and MARK who are confused and cannot get their story straight.They are not different writers to the main event. I only mentioned Matthew along with MARK concerning Johns perceived return because they both agree that Herod believed Jesus was John had come back i.e. “Risen from the dead”
It is you who is exceptionally confused. Iwill highlight for you the one single gospel of MARK!
But when Herod heard thereof, [Jesus] he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead. Mark 6:16.KJV.
So here at Mark 6:16KJV we have MARK telling us that Herod had beheaded JOHN and that Herod believedJesus was JOHN “risen from the dead”. SO HERE AT 6:16: JOHN IS DEAD!
And STAYING WITH the SAME gospel of MARK! It is not until we get to the Birthday party for HEROD at MARK 6:21 of THE SAME GOSPEL of MARK!!!!!! We find John tucked up in his cell for the night.
Read it for yourself ethang5 take particular note of V27, HERE>>>
21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthdaymade a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
22 the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king [HEROD], and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
26 And the king [HEROD] was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.
27 And immediately the king [HEROD] sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought:and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
28 And brought his head in a charger, and gave it to the damsel: and the damsel gave it to her mother.
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@ethang5
When you can state a problem, I'll be willing to listen to it. Until then, you have a nice day hear?
And when you can't point out your own glaring contradictions I will point them out for you. Until then, you too have a nice day Ethag5, may your lord of all other lords go with you.
There is only one God.
Not going by your own comments there isn't.
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@ethang5
The bible says Jesus is God. I happen to agree.
I thought so.
The bible tells us that Jesus is the Lord of Lords. I just happen to know this is, in fact, true.I believe the bible. I find it far, far more credible than you. So, to your questions, yes and yes.
Thank you. Then I suggest you go back on this thread at least to post 50 and start reading what you in particular have wrote up until your post 66.. here is what you wrote;>
There is only one God. Always has been only one, and always will be only one.
?????
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@ethang5
Ok. Let me get this correct ethang5. You are saying Jesus is God. Yes or no?
You also tell us Jesus is Lord of Lords. Yes or no?
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@Paul
I think Jesus is Lord is the same as saying Jesus is God
He was no more a god than your local priest. Come to that Jesus was no more a god than YOU! But Christians are entitled to their silly wishful thinking that this "Son of Man"JEWISH RABBI was a god. And, incidentally, it was only one person that claimed him to be "SON of a god" ,which is something else he himself never claimed to be either. In fact when it was suggested to him that he was the son of god, he told the teller, never to repeat it again.
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@Mopac
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
(5) post 55
Why didn't Jesus cure leprosy instead of just the ten lepers in Luke's gospel ?
(6) post 59
Why did Mary salute Elizabeth? KJV Luke 1:40
(7) post 65
At the crucifixion of Jesus, all the other gospels have it that the women were standing and “looking from afar”, whereas John's gospel however has them within speaking distance. Which one is correct?
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@Mopac
Not that I can't,
You can't answer those very legitimate questions simply because you haven't studied the bible especially the New Testament. If you had, then these questions wouldn't be a problem for you. Is all you have done is listened and took at face value what someone has taught or preached to you without question. Then preached the same to others. You are no different from the gullible goatherd muslim Afghanistani, who will believe anything he is told.
Let me tell you this, I can answer those questions I have posed you, I wouldn't be dumb enough to ask you something I believed I couldn't answer honestly.
You were far too quick to accuse me first of not even reading the bible and then to accuse me of not understanding it. You took the moral high ground without even finding out what it is I know or don't know. But it didn't stop you trying to lord it over me and by the looks of it Paul too. This is typical of a jumped up moralistic bible basher who has no time for anyone who he believes His is faith being questioned. I am not questioning your faith , I am questioning the scriptures and I belive it is giving you uncomfortable food for thought. Your a child who has taken guidance from another who also needs guidance, but as Jesus said, "and if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit" . So I am happy for to let the blind lead the blind.
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
(5) post 55
Why didn't Jesus cure leprosy instead of just the ten lepers in Luke's gospel ?
(6) post 59
Why did Mary salute Elizabeth? KJV Luke 1:40
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@Mopac
Your John the baptist argument is the.best proof that you don't actually understand what you are talking about.
No, what it means is that you cannot explain away why it is that John The Baptist's seems to have died twice according the jumbled mess of the scriptures.
Herod believes John is dead initially and he believes Jesus is John incarnate and has " come back to haunt him". It is there to be read and is undeniable. That fact is also attested to by TWO of the Gospel tellers, Mark and Matthew. Then we proceed to Herod's birthday party where Herod sends out the executioner to behead John on the whim of the dancing bint Salome.
You are struggling to explain away this BS so instead tell me I don't read the Bible and or I don't understand it and eventually fall back on the old favourite of someone who is stumped in his own field of expertise and accuse me of " causing trouble".
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
(5) post 55
Why didn't Jesus cure leprosy instead of just the ten lepers in Luke's gospel ?
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@ethang5
I don't doubt he is "referred" to as lord of lords by many christians, but who is it in the New Testament that actually addresses Jesus directly as "lord of lords".Jesus is referred to as the Lord of Lords. As in, the Lord to whom other Lords bow.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 19:16 Revelation.
Again , I notice, if this a reference to Jesus, it doesn't even mention that he is also a god or a god of gods.
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@ethang5
John the Baptist did not die twice.
Then what a complete jumbled up unreliable mess the scriptures are.
let's read them here>>
It begins with Herod hearing the stories of the wonder workings of Jesus, such as:
“And they went out, and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them”.Mark 6:12-13. KJV
Herod’s response is;
“This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him”.Mathew14:2. KJV.
Here then Herod is recognising the now dead John as a doer of “mighty work’s” and harbouring great respect for John but we read nothing in the gospels at all about any miracles i.e. "mighty works" performed by John so what “mighty works” had John done to now be showing themselves in Jesus?
And from Mark;
But when Herod heard thereof, [Jesus] he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead. Mark 6:16.KJV.
John the Baptist here then according to both these accounts is dead. We are not told before this point in the bible anywhere that John is dead or how he died but by these accounts we assume he has been beheaded and Herod is frightened, he believes Jesus is John come back to haunt him.
The story goes on to say;
And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
And when the daughter[Salome, not even named in the NT ] of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee. And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist. Remember John is said to be already dead!
And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
Herod appears stunned and “sorry” at the request but, up until this point is John the Baptist dead or not? We can then go on to read;
And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.
And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
And brought his head in a charger, and gave it to the damsel: and the damsel gave it to her mother.
And when his [John’s] disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb” Mark 6:12-29.
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@Paul
Okay Stephen how about this, tell me one word that could be used in place of the word Lord in the phrase Jesus is Lord that would mean the same thing. Can you do that?
I thought I had already. Jesus was directly called a master, and teacher. So you could replace the word lord with either of those titles.
P.S. Do not confuse what Jesus is referred to as, with what Jesus was actually addressed as in the NT .
One has to understand that it was only some of the higher educated and only Jesus's close educated inner circle who knew who he really was. The rest of the population of Jerusalem in particular didn't have clue who is was.
Matthew even wrote>:
And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, Who is this?
Those of Jesus' lower ranks (the lepers) had to resort to waving palm branches and banging drums and tambourines and shouting out his "name" to attract attention to him. If he had just entered on his mule no one would have taken a blind bit of notice of this saviour messiah teacher master shepherd, would they? This street show could be compared to day with someone waving placards with the face of Nigel Farage shouting vote UKIP.
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How about Jesus is Master does that mean the same thing as Jesus is Lord?
It maywell have done in its time. In the New Testament Jesus is referred to asmaster and teacher and lord but never god. This is what masters, leaders, teachers and lords do, they ' lord it' over those who are less educated and orexperienced in certain matters, simply because they did really 'know better' and could lie to and manipulate those below them.
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk inlong robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in thesynagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts.
What is a scribe? It is someone educated enough to be able to write AND read.
Think of the person convincing a muslim goatherd from the foothills of Afghanistan trying onhis new made to fit suicide suit with the promise of the ten billion virginswho will greet him in paradise. Then ask who would be able to convince someoneto blow themselves up on that silly promise in the 21st century? It would onlybe someone who was a lot more savvy and knowledgeable, wouldn't it .
You have to realise Palestine at the time. The educated were those usually ofthe priesthood and or royalty and or close friends and relatives of both former and latter. They had been educated by the best teachers/masters of the time in places such as Greece and Egypt. The rest of thepopulace were simple uneducated illiterate peasants who worked the land madepots or weaved baskets. This is why those in power could convincingly trick andlie to those of lower status i.e. backward peasants. Jesus/Luke mentions these typesin the NT, here >>;
Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk inlong robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in thesynagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts.
What is a scribe? It is someone educated enough to be able to write AND read.
Think of the person convincing a muslim goatherd from the foothills of Afghanistan trying onhis new made to fit suicide suit with the promise of the ten billion virginswho will greet him in paradise. Then ask who would be able to convince someoneto blow themselves up on that silly promise in the 21st century? It would onlybe someone who was a lot more savvy and knowledgeable, wouldn't it .
Now ask yourself, why is it that not a single one of these poor lower illiterate dunces has ever said to the designer and tailor of such a suit - you first-?
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@Mopac
I answered both of your questions already.
Now that is just a blatant lie isn't it. You haven't addressed a single one of these questions below, why is that? Are they too difficult for you, yes you,someone who proclaims to know about the New Testament but insists I haven't even read it.
Here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
(4) post 46
Why didn't Jesus resurrect his cousin John the Baptist as he is said to have done so with his friend Lazarus?
You aren't really interested in hearing the answers I give you
I am , I just don't agree with what you are saying. I have said jesus failed at his mission as messiah, that wasn't a question, it was a statement of fact. If you don't agree then you should say why. That is debate, that is discussion.
You have quite clearly stated that you will try to answer bible related questions to the best of your ability, so why haven't you even tried to answer my questions.
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@Mopac
The point of Jesus was to fulfill all of the messianic prophecies
And he failed as a messiah in my opinion because he was just an educated royal priest/ king. i.e. a man of royal birth who was born into the line of David and the high priesthood on his mother's side. You need to study what is meant by messiah and what it meant to be a messiah and what was expected of a messiah.
And you have still failed to answer two questions now after saying you will answer biblical related questions. why is that?
here they are again. You will notice I add a question every time you fail to answer>>
(1) post 30
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
(2) post 36
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
(3) post 38
John the Baptist died twice, how did that happen?
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@janesix
I think we've answered this like 200,000 times.
I thought this was a new forum, jannesix
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@Mopac
it isn't as relevent as you think it is.
Ok so let's get back to the original question asked by Paul. - Is Jesus lord.
I say yes, but not a god. I have explained why I believe jesus wasn't a god. You on the other hand have failed to prove jesus was/ IS a god.
And there is this you seem to now want to avoid>.
If you actually care to get answers, I will help you to the best of my ability. As long as you are asking questions about the bible,
You have already failed twice now to answer one question put to you so what about this one>;
If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?
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@Mopac
What mesopotamian stories and myths did the prophets come from?
examples: The biblical creation story & flood story are re-telling of Mesopotamian epics, Babylonian in particular. They were picked up during the Babylonian captivity and wrote down, re told & passed off as Hebrew/Israelite history. They are not Biblical Hebrew, Israelite of even Jewish ORIGINALS, they are lifted straight from the Mesopotamian epics that were wrote THOUSANDS of years before the Bible was even thought of. You need to do a bit more reading otherwise you will remain the dunce you are now for the rest of your life.
You are making this up, or repeating something someone else made up.
I would like you to prove I have made anything up. Mind how you struggle.
If you actually care to get answers, I will help you to the best of my ability. As long as you are asking questions about the bible,
You have avoided my question you said you would answer concerning the bible.
Is the reason for baptism to cleans one of their sins?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
So you just chose your religion?
No. Muslims are "born" muslims if their parents are muslim. Christians are baptised or Christened by their parents, but they can leave their parent allotted religion for any other religion without fear of being killed or a death sentence hanging over them, something that a muslim cannot do i.e. a muslim cannot leave Islam without the punishment of death hanging over them.
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@Mopac
Jesus is The Truth.The Truth is king.
Jesus told a few lies and it depends on what and whose "truth" sounds more truthful. As Pontius Pilate said- "what is truth".
Guilty people get found not guilty & innocent people are found guilty because someone's "truth" was more convincing than someone else's "truth". You really need to grow up.
You live in the 21st century now, your not living in 1st century Judea and unless you understand what was going on in such places as Palestine and Galilee at the time of the Christ, you will never, EVER understand a damn thing about the New Testament and the life of the Christ and so called "messiah".
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@Mopac
If you actually care to get answers, I will help you to the best of my ability. As long as you are asking questions about the bible,
Is baptism a ritual of cleansing of one's sins?
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@Mopac
You are claiming something about the old testament based on texts other than the old testament,
No I am not. I am claiming the OT was lifted from the Mesopotamian Epics and that the the word god is not even in those epics but the word lord can be found a read many hundreds of times in those Epics and the world lord does not mean a supernatural, all seeing, all hearing, all singing and all dancing god, who is everywhere at all times as was believed of GREEK AND ROMAN "gods". GROW UP! God is a rather new word meaning something entirely different to the word lord. You are having trouble understanding this. I cannot help you as there is no cure for stupid.
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@Paul
So Jesus is Lord does not mean Jesus is God?
Correct Paul, it doesn't. Not in its original meaning. Lord is what I have already explained, highly educated and of the higher classes, such as Royalty and or Priesthood. Someone who is highly educated and more experienced in certain fields can and do ' lord it ' over others less educated and experienced. We can call anyone anything we like, the romans decided he - Jesus - was a god, they had to make him a state god or the population wouldn't have accepted christianity as a state religion.. A person today can call themselves by any name / title they wish as long as you don't use it for fraudulent purposes.
The problem with the likes of Mopac, is, they cannot face a few very simple facts and or refuse to acknowledge historical facts. Jesus was a man that is a fact, Jesus wasn't a god and Mopac cannot prove otherwise. Jesus was a highly educated royal, who simply fought for his rightful inheritance, the throne of Jerusalem/king of the jews, even Pontius Pilate recognised this.. fact!. In fact Jesus had the duel authority in that he was both king and high priest. This is why the puppet high priesthood and the puppet kingship of the time felt threatened and wanted rid of him and looked on him as and accused him of, being a trouble making pretender. We have to remember that both High Priest Caiaphas and King Herod were put into power by the Romans.
But rather than face a few facts such as those mentioned dunces like Mopac would rather accuse you of, (1) lying,(2) not knowing anything about the Bible,(3)not having read the Bible, (4) not understanding anything about ancient history and (5) that lovely oft trotted out old chestnut, of being a troll who is only here to cause or "stir up trouble".
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@Paul
God is called the Lord all over the place in the Bible
Ya don't say. I know the word god is often interchanged with the word lord. But the original abstract idea of a god doesn't resemble at all, what a lord is, was or meant..
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@Mopac
The new testament is written in greek, and you clearly don't know what is written in it.
Don't be silly. Of course I know what is written in the Bible and I know that it is a translation of Greek. The OT was taken from the original Mesopotamian epics. You seem have totally missed my point which I won't now be bothering to expand on or explain to you as I can see you are somewhat confused.
But as I have already stated. The concept of a "god" doesn't resemble at all, the original meaning of the word Lord.
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@Paul
"Right, so Jesus is Lord is the same as saying Jesus is God".
No. Wrong. Jesus was simply an highly educated Royal, schooled in Egypt.: a lord.
The original Mesopotamian texts from which the Old Testament originates not once mentions the word god, They continually refer to these "higher beings / shining ones" i.e. educated ones/ teachers, to be their "lords". God/Deus is a Greek word.
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@Paul
Jesus is Lord
So is Lord John " two jags" Prescott. As are the other 800 jumped up non entities Lords in the U.K. It doesn't mean much it's only a title. In ancient times it meant to be educated in many fields. The first so called "gods" were never ever referred to as gods, they were simply called lords.
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@keithprosser
The OT isn't even interested in all people - only the Hebrews.
and Israelites.. Which is why I have never understood why people try bringing the OT into the argument against Christians when discussing the barbarity of Islam.
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@Stronn
I don't buy most religions. They implicitly assume that we are somehow the point of the entire universe, when in fact we are an insignificant speck.
I doubt very much any western religions believe we are "the point of the entire universe" any more. The vatican admitted recently that we are "not alone". And common sense in general would have us all down as pig ignorant people if we still believed we were the only beings in the whole universe.
I can't speak for other religions, but those not forcibly held back from education and the sciences would, I am sure, in the 21st century , agree that we are not alone and or the central focus of the universe.
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@linate
agnostic means to be neutral about god
An agnostic is someone who simply doesn't know , has no knowledge of etc. A- Gnosis = no knowledge of spiritual mysteries. Di- agnosis is best educated guess. Gnosis means one does or claims to have, knowledge of spiritual mysteries.
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We aren't trying to divide anyone, we're simply pointing out facts (immigrants from certain parts of the world are significantly more prone to comitting crime), and applying the best possible solution we currently have (end immigration from those areas or dramatically increase vetting and background checks and whatnot). That isn't divisive, it's logical.
It is logical, unless you are speaking to a left wing liberal who will never be directly affected by this mass migration of "immigrants from certain parts of the world".
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his remarks were disappointing
Oh please, stop trying to play down the seriousness of these statements. They weren't just "remarks" said off the cuff as you seem to be suggesting. These were statements made in his maiden speech as Prime Minister of Pakistan, he has also repeated them to the UN and islamic countries and councils around the world; he wants a blasphemy law world wide.
You are obviously not realising the bigger picture here, or you’re simply ignoring it.
It is one thing to pay lip service to the blasphemy law to quell and or appease the extreme Islamic elements in your country. It is another to proactively encourage these ancient blasphemy laws thereby bringing it into the spotlight and to call on and encourage other Islamic countries to ban cartoons. This is clearly incitement and would be classed as a hate crime should have I called for something similar, for instance - burn the Quran – say. And of course Khan had been playing the blasphemy card long before the suggestion of a cartoon competition:something else you have chosen to ignore.
Of course the other quite real possibility is that Prime Minister Imran Khan is not trying to quell or appease the Islamic extremist but actually agreeing with them. If this be the case, then the world has a bigger problem coming from that region than one could ever imagine.
The son of murdered Pakistani MP Salmaan Taseer told the Guardian:-
“My fatherwas a hero and a champion for change. He wanted amendments in this barbariclaw.
Imran Khan is a coward; he is supporting murderers and mob violence. This law is persecuting people; it is not respecting our prophet.”
And I will add, there is nothing I Quran that states any type of punishment... in this life.
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@Castin
Clearly he's very patriotic,
He is. He is calling for the German people to "grow some balls and defend themselves because the government won't". And from my experience this is true. It appears that the governments of Europe are not defending or protecting the indigenous citizens.
This is suppose, is what happens when the will of the people are ignored and then are left to defend themselves after the disastrous decisions governments have taken upon themselves to deploy. Is it any wonder why the right is on the rise?
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@Castin
But it looks like a German man was recently stabbed to death by two migrants in a brawl
I have only read briefly about this. It appears that the dead father of three who was stabbed multiple times was at a cash point with two of his friends when they were approached by migrants who attempted to rob them, they fled at one point only to return with another seven migrants and this is when the stabbing happened. Two failed asylum seeking refugees (one well known to the police) have been detained.
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@keithprosser
I'd say its disappointing,
But you haven't condemned Khan's decision to attempt to make blasphemy a crime around the world in the 21st century!. This is odd coming from someone who doesn't even believe in a god.
And you haven't even tried to explain the over the top reaction to a cartoon competition in your link that hasn't even taken place.. at all.
Are you saying that if it wasn't for the idea of a cartoon competition Prime Minister Imran Khan wouldn't have even mentioned blasphemy laws in his maiden speech?
Khan may have felt he had to say something about it to avoid making enemies of religious conservatives.
Say something!? You have obviously found the first clip you could find that goes some way to excusing this "disappointing" decision by Imran Khan. What you have glided over and ignored is the fact that he wants to ban blasphemy of islam and muhammad world wide.
So if that be the case, we are free to mock, criticize and ridicule any other ideology and or religion as long as it isn't islam.
Do you not realise the implications here or are you just defending and apologising for khan and islam?
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we can grab your women and you can't do nothing about it..because you have no balls, and the police won't do much about it
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Corruption, radicalisation, illiteracy & poverty werejust a few of the problems of Pakistan that Imran Khan promised to tackle and “solve”and the promises that he got elected into the office as Prime minister of Pakistan, on.
Yet in typical fashion of most the world’s politicians heseems to have back slid and made it a “priority” that blasphemy laws will be enforced.
In his maiden speech Khan said he intended to raise the blasphemy issue in the United Nations and wouldwork to achieve a common stand within the 57-nation Organization of IslamicCooperation (OIC).
Pakistan, asmany may know, is one of the worst countries in the world if one happens to be Christianand to oppose blasphemy laws is without doubt a death sentence and findingevidence for this one doesn’t have to look no further the case of Asiabibi and Salmaan Taseer who was murdered.
Asia Bibi blasphemy case involves a Pakistani Christian woman, AasiyaNoreen better known as Asia Bibi, convicted of blasphemy by a Pakistani court, receiving a sentence of death by hanging in 2010. InJune 2009, Noreen was involved in an argument with a group of Muslim women withwhom she had been harvesting berries after the other women grew angry with herfor drinking the same water as them. She was subsequently accused of insultingthe Islamic prophet Muhammad, a charge shedenies, and was arrested and imprisoned where eventually a Sheikhupura judge sentenced her to death.
Salmaan Tasseer was a Pakistani businessman and a liberalpolitician who simply asked the court to show mercy to this young girland he was murdered by his own bodyguard for having the audacity to ask such athing for someone who was convicted of “insulting the prophet”.
Some Pakistanis had believed they were getting change whenthey elected Khan, but it seems to be a case of – if nothing changes, thingswill remain the same. His decision to enforce blasphemy laws has been hailed widely hailed across Pakistan and encouraged in Saudi Arabia. When will these barbaric uneducated backward Muslimssimply grow up and realise that killing someone for being or thinking differentisn’t peaceful or benevolent?
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@Willows
Unfortunately for Catholics, they just happen to belong to what is probably one of the most, hideous, vile and corrupt institutions ever devised.
As is Islam.
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@vagabond
How about you tell me how many god stories you believe?
And you, how many god stories do you believe?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Why that dunce vagabond would even consider Catholics to be anything but Christian is extremely telling of his brain capacity. Maybe he thinks that Catholics are Buddhist in reality, or even Hindus or God forbid Muslims.. This thread is just another Christian baiting thread by a complete dunce who has nothing all to do but bait , mock and ridicule Christians and Christianity.
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@vagabond
There are plenty of "christians" who claim that catholics aren't christian. Your stupid if your poor reading showed you that I'm making that claim. The "?" at the end of sentences is a clue.
Yes I recognised it to be a question, you dummy., a stupid time wasting question. And I asked you, what else would a catholic be if not Christian.?You haven't answered that. and the reason you haven't answered is because it has been pointed out to you how absolutely cretinous your original question is.
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