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@n8nrgim
i like to think Jesus still heals people with things that look like miraculous healing.Do you have an example of Jesus "still healing" people with supporting evidence Just one example will do.i've always been posting examples of the miraculous, and ya'll skeptics just choose to ignore it. here is an example.
Your link.
You must have missed the part where the monk Fr. Akiki and the woman Dafne Gutierrez both prayed over the remains of a long dead man Saint Charbel a Lebanese monk. Which clearly smacks of "graven images" worship to me.
I should imagine sales in statues of Saint Charbel the Lebanese monk went through the roof after this particular "miracle".
See here>>> https://www.etsy.com/market/st._charbel_statue
the catholic church has a whole section of itself that investigates miracles.
Which is like asking Hitler to investigate the unruly behaviour of his SS.
it's irrational to deny that things that look supernatural happen...
Some say "supernatural" while others will simply say unexplainable.
the question is how to interpret them [supernatural things].
The question is how the scientific world or the individual may interpret them? Simply to say "Jesus did it" is faith faith - a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
I will have to concede though, n8nrgim, that there is one unexplainable thing about the story in your chosen example and it really does have me puzzled and scratching my head..
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@n8nrgim
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
i like to think the new testament is where the truth is,
Do you have any particular part of the New Testamant in mind when you say that ?
and jesus liked to heal people.
When the New Testamant speaks of Jesus "healing people" what do you take that to mean? And he didn't seem to happy or too keen about healing a certain daughter. he called her a dog.
there's not a lot of evidence of non healing miracles in the new testament.
He somehow forgot to raise his cousin John the Baptist "the greatest prophet that ever lived" from the dead. Indeed he didn't shed a tear when he heard of the greatest prophet that ever lived had died as he did with his friend Lazarus . He both wept and raised Lazarus from the dead.
One has to wonder what was so special about Lazarus.
i like to think Jesus still heals people with things that look like miraculous healing.
Do you have an example of Jesus "still healing" people with supporting evidence Just one example will do.
we're meant to walk by faith to a large degree.
Indeed - faith - a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
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@FLRW
How come God isn't talking to people through a burning bush anymore?
Zipporah the wife of Moses was a flaming red head, so maybe it wasn't a desert bush that he was conversing with.?
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@Sidewalker
Sidewalker wrote: Demonic religious ideation and Satanic delusions could be outward manifestations of dark internal realities of a mind in turmoil as it struggles to preserve some semblance of self-esteem, sense of self-worth and identity by denying the existence of the traumatic internal issues.There might be something in that. I should imagine anyone taken in by such an invention as the devil dogma that has absolutely no grounds may well be suffering from-as you put it - mental turmoil or traumatic internal issues, and just the kind of weak minded sort that the Christian church and other religions usually prey on.Sidewalker wrote: Good for you, recognizing the problem is the first step in overcoming it.
Well it would be a good start for Christians that still to this day are taken in by and believe such nonsense as the existence of "demons" and hell fire" and "a devil" that is after their soul and wanting to drag them all the way to hell. Which is also to this day, preached from the pulpit by the Pastors and the Priests.
How is that "obsessively attacking Christianity" thing working out for you?
Questioning and scrutinizing the ambiguous half stories that make up the gospels is not attacking Christians. Its a study and research of the scriptures. But I can understand someone who cannot tell the difference thinking just that.
Doesn't seem to be working, it hasn't done a thing to lessen the your anger,
I have no anger. I quite enjoy my favourite subject of bible study and theology research. It really is my favourite subject of all subjects. Its a passion for me and not an "obsession".
perhaps you should simply confront the Christian you are so upset with,
I'm not upset with Christians. Unless they (or anyone else) happen to start calling me names and making false accusation unjustifiably, simply for thinking different to them or because I happen to know and understand the scriptures better than most I have met.
But I do get mystified at times that they cannot seem to understand the difference between critical thinking and blind faith without question. That too can be put down to the Pastors and Priests and their threats of "the devil" and hell fire over the last two millennia.
if you can overcome your fear of speaking directly to them, maybe putting it all on the table will help you handle your demons.
You have totally misunderstood the thread.
I have no "demons". I don't believe in "the devil" or hell either. These are things that are a complete invention of the early Church Bishops, as I explain in some depth above HERE> #1 HERE> #7 and HERE>#8 . But let me expand on this.
In the scriptures someone being possessed by "he devil "and or having a "demon" is applied to many things and situations. Simply being sick or upsetting the status quo , or being antisocial then one is said to have a "demon". John the Baptist was said to have a demon yet Jesus said he was the "greatest prophet that ever lived". Jesus himself was said by members of his own family to also be "possessed" yet he was the "son of god" wasn't he?
It's very clear trolling the internet isn't helping, it's time to stop acting out and face up to the real world.
Well if you happen to be speaking of Christians that have been taken for a complete and utter ride over the past two millennia by having their minds filled with dread and fear, and have been taught to believe the Christian invention of "the devil" and his hoards of demon that will take their soul and drag them to hell when they die by Pastors, Chaplains and Priests, then I can only hope many of my threads will help them "face up to the real world".
Maybe they should start with this thread.
You didn't answer this:
Sidewalker wrote: yousay ”the Church” as if Christianity is a single monolithic entity with twobillion people that all think alike. #9OK. Which branch of the Christian church do not believe in the devil? And are you saying adherents to Christianity do not believe in the devil?
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@Lemming
I am not willing to consider your post #61 in depth,
I think you mean you not willing to consider my post - at all.
Frankly, Lemming, my post #61 was put out there for the consideration of anyone that may be interested.
Interestingly, I looked into the political commentator that I mention in my post#61.
Melanie Phillips
Currently writes for The Times, The Jerusalem Post, and The Jewish Chronicle, covering political and social issues from a social conservative perspective.
Her family is Jewish and emigrated to Britain from Poland and Russia.
That may well explain her comments concerning the land that god promised to Abram and his descendants and why she stated that there was nothing there "but a few nomads with couple of goats camels and tents". She is obviously going to steer clear of any questions of how the Israelites came to be the occupants of that part of the world in the first place.
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
An interesting quote I picked up on here , Brother D.
The Reverend to Critical-Tim:
Tradesecret wrote: @Critical-TimI totally agree that the Christian Bible, OT and NT needs to be interpreted and to be interpreted properly.
This a surprising statement for the Reverend - our resident Pastor Tradesecret to make , don't you think?
Considering that when I have brought up the fact that I have found the bible to be ambiguous and filled with enigmatic half stories, the Reverend Tradesecret has, on numerous occasion made it expressly clear to me in the past, stating that:
I am comfortable with our English bible translators and their attempts to convey the right balance as they understand it.#39
The authors in the bible are pretty clear about what they want to communicate.#62
I for one, do not believe that the bible is ambiguous at all. It is clear. Crystal clear in fact.#55
🤔
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@Lemming
Who was occupying the land before god gifted the land to the descendants of Abram?
Which turned out to be not a gift at all. No, they had to take the already occupied land that had it own established towns, cities and a king/s, by force and butchering "every living thing that breaths" in their path Deuteronomy 20:16, it was called Canaan.
I just recently heard a political commentator ( Melanie Phillips I think?) suggest that there was no one there but Bedouins with a few camels, goats, tents, pots and pans for cooking. This has to be a bare faced lie if the bible is to believed.
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@Sidewalker
So;Why has the Christian Church filled our minds of such fearful satanic dogma and the same said Church has attached to the incident with Eve and the serpent?Thequestion is why has the Christian Church filled YOUR mind with such fearful satanic dogma.
It think you need to look up the word - dogma.
Very few report the Christian experience as “fearfulSatanic dogma”, clearly the answer to your questions can only be found viaintrospection.
People- Christians in particular have had the notion of the devil implanted in their minds for millennia. Whether one believes in the devil or not. But the Christian church and its adherents do. Its called Christian dogma because the devil is a creation of the Christian Church. It comes from nowhere else.
Nowhere in the Genesis account is there any mention, direct or indirect of Satan's involvement but it hasn't stopped -indeed it has become common practice - for the Church to portray the Eden serpent as a representative of Satan or Satan himself as in Revelation 12:9.Yousay ”the Church” as if Christianity is a single monolithic entity with twobillion people that all think alike.
Ok. Which branch of the Christian church do not believe in the devil? And are you saying adherents to Christianity do not believe in the devil?
This drama is a psychological drama playingout internally and being projected onto others.
Which was what the Christian invention of the devil was intended to do. Pastors and Priest project the unfounded idea of the evil onto their congregations .
From my own understanding, in the Hebrew bible as in the conventional or mainstream Judaism to this day Satan never appears as Western Christendom has come to know him. The Christian perception of Satan is that of an evil imperialist whose hoards of demons wages war on god and humankind, but this Satan character was an invention of the post -Jesus era that has absolutely no more historic value than anything written by Bram Stoker and his Gothic fictional character, count Dracula.Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.Judaismand Christianity are indeed two different religions, with differing interpretationsof the same ancient Scriptures.
And that is exactly my point. I refer you to replies I have gave above to other members on this thread.
So in this regard, why is it that the Christian Church felt it necessary to wrap around an emissary of god a myth that is only worthy of a gothic novel that has no historicity to it whatsoever?It is said that all wars are internal wars, perhaps the inner turmoil you are projecting outwardly is a deliberate and intentional effort to be disconnected from a poor self-image, negative feelings, guilt, or mental illness.
I agree in part. Anyone of the modern age taken in by this particular Christian invention of the devil, do, IMO, suffer from some sort of mental illness. Though, I am glad that you said that and not me.
Demonic religious ideation and Satanic delusions could be outward manifestations of dark internal realities of a mind in turmoil as it struggles to preserve some semblance of self-esteem, sense of self-worth and identity by denying the existence of the traumatic internal issues.
There might be something in that. I should imagine anyone taken in by such an invention as the devil dogma that has absolutely no grounds may well be suffering from-as you put it - mental turmoil or traumatic internal issues, and just the kind of weak minded sort that the Christian church and other religions usually prey on.
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@Lemming
I am not willing to consider your post #79 in depth,Due to the gist of it and past posts by you,I don't think there is value in it for me.
I am not surprised. Because It goes against what it was you had automatically assumed and then commented on nothing more than an unsubstantiated assumption.
I don't think there is value in it for me.
That's correct. There "is no value in it for YOU", because the actual facts don't square with your shit-stirring false accusations of harassment., Lemming.
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@Lemming
I would like to state that Mods seem to take reports from the targets of harassment more seriously than bystander reports of harassment.
Have you read the thread, Lemming?
I was introduced into and mentioned and tagged in this thread before I had even joined it, by no one else other than Critical-Tim himself. Here> #10 Here> #13 and Here> #22. It appears to me that Critical-Tim was desperate for me to join in the thread- his thread.
I only joined the thread here> #23
I aske a question in relation to his- Critical-Tim's own comment/s. I then picked up on a blatant lie that the Reverend Tradesecret had told to Critical-Tim ( a believer in honesty and truth according to his bio) and so I responded accordingly.> HERE #27
Critical-Tim didn't answer my question but did respond by calling me a member of a "cult" and an "Acolyte" " BrotherS.Acolyte" to be precise with Brother Thomas being "cult leader" #32
I was then called "pathetic" for no reason that I could see? Here > #35
I hadn't abused or insulted Critical-Tim, then and further reading will show nowhere that I did so after.
So please, do not start getting offended on someone else's behalf and encouraging them to cry to the mods , especially when you don't have all the FKN FACTS!
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Critical_Tim,s[...................] vying to be as Bible Stupid as Miss Tradesecret,
His videos appear to contradict his bio too.
This stood out too:
Debate Omission Notice: 'I have made a personal decision to decline debate invitations due to the negative impact they often have on fostering understanding'.
Very odd thing for Critical_Tim (who tells us his real name in his YT videos )to inform the members of considering he has a video on YouTube titled 'How to Debate'.
Unless he's not who he says he is.
Of course it could always be the case that our resident "author of Children's Books" Critical_Tim is not who he claims to be and has picked out some obscure youtuber with less than 60 combined views over 6 videos and no comments than anyone on this forum and passed himself off as?
Still. Although ever the sceptic , I always welcome new faces to the religion forum , no matter how many faces they turn out to have.😁
It reminds us of Miss Tradesecret
Indeed. The Reverend returned once after a long sabbatical asTimid8967 https://www.debateart.com/members/Timid8967 if remember correctly. And he too wanted religion abolished and the bible thrown in the trash , just like the Reverend. I wonder what ever happened to Dim Tim, because he was never banned.?
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@Best.Korea
Christians and muslims:
Indeed, and god created twelve tribes so they could argue about who is god, what is god, which god is the real god, gods name, how many gods there are/were, which words of god are true, how the words of god should be interpreted, which are gods true law, which are not gods true law. While the world turns
Adam told Eve listen here to me, dontcha let me catchya messin' round that apple tree- ever since the world began.
Samson told Delilah , loud and clear, keep your cotton-picking finger out my curly hair - ever since the world began.
I heard about a king that was doin' swell, till he started messin' with that evil Jezebel - ever since the world began. While the world turns.
Words in bold written by the great black American song writer Claude Demetrius & performed by the late great American singer Elvis Arron Presley.
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@ponikshiy
The Middle Eastern conflict will never be resolved while the Al-Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem stands where it is. IMO
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
As is shown ad infinitum upon this Religion Forum, Miss Tradesecret has stepped in the proverbial poo AGAIN!MISS TRADESECRET'S CONTRADICTING QUOTE RELATIVE TO JESUS AS GOD: "He is the reason we acknowledge murder and rape is evil."
Well Brother D, the only thing that shocks me about anything that spews from any one of the Reverend Tradsecrets multiple mouths is that anything he says doesn't shocks me at all.
Is the Reverend Tradesecret really trying to convince us that the Israelites didn't know that Murder and Rape were evil before Moses supposedly came into their lives and told them it was evil!?
Were not gods own son's condemned for raping daughters of men?
Did not god order the death of every living thing saying: " do not leave alive anything that breathes"?
Does not god say to his people : 'if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife'.
Does not the BIBLE have god saying: 'I make peace and create evil'?
Do not the Jews themselves ask the rhetorical question: ' shall there be evil in a city and the lord hath not done it'?
Brother D, by now, every member that has posted on this religion forum knows full well and has come to know that the Reverend Tradsesecret is full of shite and his true colours.
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@n8nrgim
Humans r nothing else than elaborate flesh robots
Further to my post in response to you above here>
I was thinking more of the artificially created En-Ki-Du (Enkidu)that became a companion of Gilgamesh in the Sumerian epics. If my memory serves me, I think he is described as "bloodless".
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@ponikshiy
I cry when I read the epic of gilgamesh. If anyone deserved eternal life it was him and the God's fucked him over
As was the faithful & righteous servant Job for a wager.
As was Uzzah for simply trying to save gods precious gift to the Israelites from tumbling: The ark of the covenant.
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
I simply cannot fathom it at all Brother D.
The Reverend has informed the whole forum on quite a few occasions now and has driven the point home again just yesterday that s/he wants nothing to do with neither you nor I. Doesn't read our posts, has no interest in engaging us since blocking us back in December.
I don't know about you but it bothers me not one iota.
As far as I am concerned, the Reverend couldn't have done me a bigger favour in leaving the gate wide open and giving me free reign to publish my onw opinions, thoughts, ideas and to scrutinize and question the scriptures without being interrupted by such a boring bible dunce as the Reverend.
I would thank the Reverend, but of course, being blocked this now will never happen...... 😊
And just in case you may have thought I will be apologizing as per the Reverend's Ultimatum shown here>#60, Brother D, I can only say......... no fkn chance.
With that said, SEE HERE>>>>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9943-the-myth-of-satan?page=1&post_number=6
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Stephen,Here we go again with the #1 Bible Stupid Fool Miss Tradesecret!MISS TRADESECRET LYING POST AGAIN RELATING TO US: “I really am not interested in whatever either of them say. Yes, I can see they have reams of posts. But I am not interested in reading any of it whatsoever.”“Until they apologize for their lying trolling and bullying, I refuse to engage with them. Neither of them has PMed me to even do so. Not that I expect them to.”
Yes, and it's not the first time s/he has wheeled out this old tripe. She has already denied several times reading material posted on the religion forum by both you and I , adding " I have absolutely no interest in what they [you or I] have to say".
How could I ever forget that historic day when the Reverend Tradesecret informed us both In December last year that;
Tradesecret wrote: I didn't want to do this. But I am going to put both you and Brother on permanent block.
And I replied;
Stephen wrote: You do as you please. But do not be a coward by responding to anything I write where I cannot respond to you directly in return. It is an extremely cowardly practice carried out by a few here..... and a habit that I am confident that you will not be able to resist practicing yourself.
A cowardly act I called that practice. And I assured the Reverend that I had confidence that s/he wouldn't be able to stop himself doing exactly that. Indeed I predicted in a reply to you just after we were blocked;
Stephen wrote: Brother. I am telling you now. Tradesecret's narcissistic personality, his ego , arrogance and air of superiority will simply not allow him to resist responding. You can bet your last $ that Tradesecret will come up with his own definition and meaning to the words "permanent block", that he speaks of here> #390
Well guess what!!!!? SEE HERE>>>>>>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9943-the-myth-of-satan?page=1&post_number=6
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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@n8nrgim
Humans r nothing else than elaborate flesh robots.
IMO, you are nearly correct.
Read the first part of the Epic of Gilgamesh. But you are not far wrong, where one can read the biblical story telling us
" and god didn't have no one to 'plough the land" .
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@IlDiavolo
I'm not an expert on chirsianity but as far as I remember the devils are heavenly messengers of God's bad news which can explain the bad reputation of these entities in later interpretations.
To my knowledge 'The devil' is a Christian invention of the early Christian Bishops. Born out of an Old Testament passage from Isaiah and has nothing at all to do with the Eden serpent Lord or A Satan which are the sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim).
As of the Eden serpent, it's the same allegory of the serpent that showed up in front of Jesus, aka the Christ.
I am going to assume you are referring to the so called "temptation" in the desert.
This is interesting for reasons that I set out in my OP. #1 saying:
Stephen wrote:
Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.
So if this event ever did take place, the test would have been performed by A Satan which would make more sense in the Hebrew sense of the word than the demonic entity created by the early Christian Bishops called 'the devil' .
Last but not least, Satan is also a server of the christian God as well as the devils I mentioned before. So, christians blame Satan for all their misfortunes when in reality they should blame Jehova who is their God that is in charge of all the entities that intervene in the human destiny.
Excellent observation!
And you are not far of the mark with that comment and the bible itself can back you up. Because in terms of the Hebrew/Israelite biblical understanding they make no bones about evil having any other source but god himself and to think otherwise was totally out of the question. God himself was reckoned to be the instigator of all things. The books of Isaiah and I think Amos both make clear references to exactly what you have claimed.
Although, and not to be unexpected, the early Bishops had another ideas as I have already covered above to zedvictor4 #7. They maintained that god had to have a evil adversary from whom the people can be saved - enter stage left- ' the devil'.
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@zedvictor4
It's the same old good bad good format.
Not too far off the mark there Vic, lad.
This sinister Satanic character aka Lucifer surfaced mainly through the creation of Christian dualism. i.e. the idea of two opposing gods. Some traditions have that Satan was either brother or the son of the Christian god Jehovah or was even the competitive and aggressive aspect of Jehovah himself!
So in essence created the Jehovah - Satan conflict that appears to be representative of the ancient pre- Christian tradition of the symbolic battle between light and darkness. It seems that the Christian church were desperate for an anti-god/Christ figure -indeed, such a figure was necessary -to create for god a perceived enemy. And this perceived enemy was the Christian invented Satan. Satan that would claim the souls of the wicked that didn't offer absolute loyalty and obedience to the Church.
I am sure that you can guess that for this diabolical scheme of fear and anxiety to succeed, the Christian Satan had to have existed from the beginning of time and not to have appeared to have been plucked out of thin air by the Bishops, and what better place was there than to place him in the earliest story of mankind than that of the Adam and his wife Eve.
Of course, the problem was that Genesis made no mention whatsoever of Satan being present.
The serpent story is another matter entirely.
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@Critical-Tim
Everyone has their due time in the spotlight, it was your turn.
My turn for what?
You disrespected me when you associated yourself with BrotherD.CultLeader and claimed there was no logical paradox.
That sounds like victimhood to me. Still . I haven't associated myself with a single person on the whole of this forum. I have had my agreements and disagreements with many members here, including the Brother. Why you are upset about that is down to you Critical - Tim. You simply cannot show anywhere that I have disrespected you so have now invented disrespect and are grappling for a reason to end our exchanges and not answer my simple question that have come about via your own comments and statements.. But It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Simply do not respond to me in future. But I will continue to question you whenever I have a question concerning something that you or anyone else have said, claimed or testified to.
Debate members are to treat each other as rational and logical members,
Which I have always done until I am abused first and or accused of being something I am not. I could give you an example of what I mean if you like.
you have acted as if I have no brain by claiming there is no logical paradox.
Not at all. That is an invention of your own mind. That too smacks of a desperate attempt to end our exchanges without any true or justified reason.
It's you and BrotherD.CultLeader against the world.
No. I have said the brother is his own man. and can stand his own corner. I simply joined this forum to investigate, question and discuss the scriptures. But , there are many here that simply want to use this religion forum as a soap box and don't like to be challenged. you are coming across like one of those too. That ball is always in theirs's or your court and I don't care either way.
It leaves me free to write down, produce, issue and publish my own thoughts, theories, opinions and ideas about the scriptures and to go unchallenged. What more could a heretic want.
This is where our discussion ends
Yes. I thought it may do.
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I haven't created a thread in the religion forum for some time now as I felt that there isn't actually anyone that wants to discuss the actual scriptures but instead would rather tell us how loving god is, how much he loves us all, gave us free will and such, although the biblical evidence proves otherwise. .. But I feel slightly compelled to do so after a recent (and unwise) ad hominem directed at me which, more or less, suggested that I have nothing left to offer the religion forum.
So;
Why has the Christian Church filled our minds of such fearful satanic dogma and the same said Church has attached to the incident with Eve and the serpent?
Nowhere in the Genesis account is there any mention, direct or indirect of Satan's involvement but it hasn't stopped -indeed it has become common practice - for the Church to portray the Eden serpent as a representative of Satan or Satan himself as in Revelation 12:9.
From my own understanding, in the Hebrew bible as in the conventional or mainstream Judaism to this day Satan never appears as Western Christendom has come to know him. The Christian perception of Satan is that of an evil imperialist whose hoards of demons wages war on god and humankind, but this Satan character was an invention of the post -Jesus era that has absolutely no more historic value than anything written by Bram Stoker and his Gothic fictional character, count Dracula.
Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.
So in this regard, why is it that the Christian Church felt it necessary to wrap around an emissary of god a myth that is only worthy of a gothic novel that has no historicity to it whatsoever?
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@Critical-Tim
Are you not a member of the cult?
Not unless you are suggesting atheism is now a cult. I would have thought that in my case I would be deemed a heretic, considering that I believe much of the bible and that all of it's characters there- in existed. I simply do not believe the bible in the state it has come down and preached to us over the millennia. I believe that there is another story below the surface.; which is simply my own opinion. Are you denying me an opinion, Critical -Tim?
My citation not only concisely proves that not only are all Bibles interpretations of God's words without a God given dictionary, but also that believing in the interpreted Bible as evidence that all interpretations are invalid is paradoxical. We cannot continue without this fact acknowledged.interpretations are valid, or the Bible isn't:
Well that is your opinion and may be worth exploring. It would be better than simply calling me "pathetic" for simply posing question that have arisen from your own comments and accusations directed at me personally, don't you think?
In regard to your comment that my remark of you being pathetic is inappropriate.
Indeed it was. You had no grounds for that insult whatsoever. What was pathetic about asking you what language you believe god spoke in considering that it was you that claimed god didn't speak English? It was you that introduced language - "god's language" - into this thread - your own thread. It wasn't me, was it?
My impression was that, following my presentation of a definitive proof concerning the logical paradox, your subsequent comment seemed more like an extended inquiry from an uninvolved party member.
I am going to assume that by stating "an uninvolved party member" you are referring to the Reverend Tradsecret- please correct me if I am wrong.
If this is the case then you would be wrong to say he is "uninvolved" in this thread. In fact he was the second person to respond to you at post #4 and at some length too, in which he clearly states to you directly that - "I am not a fan of the KJV". Of course I had shown that his comment not to be truthful and I did so here at post #27.
It's all very well you getting annoyed with me and insulting me on behalf of others, but I presented evidence that shows the Reverend Tradesecret to be a contradictory lying clown at the best of times -if not all the time. Are you telling me that I shouldn't call out lies and contradictions when they arise?
It appeared as though you were attempting to divert the conversation, potentially with the intention of causing harm to others' reputations,[.......]lashing out [.....] wanted to unproductively criticize a disengaged member.
Well you were totally wrong. I knew perfectly well that you had been lied to and sought to correct it. If any good came from it , it is that you know what you are up against when engaging a compulsive liar and contradictory clown such as the Reverend Tradesecret.
I don't like having negative conversations with anyone and try to never offend anyone.
Can you give me and example where it is that I have engaged YOU negatively?
I believe that every perspective adds light to help in gaining comprehension.
I agree. But you are the one that has weighed into me with nothing but "negativity" simply for posing questions to you that have arisen from your own statements and comment.
And lets not forget it is you that has claimed "all my beliefs have been debunked" . without even reading what it is I have had to say in the past with over some 200 threads in the religion forum alone. This doesn't appear to be you wanting to "gain comprehension", or "perspective" or adding any of "the light" that you seem to be seeking, does it, Critical- Tim? No, in my case you have simply dismissed out of hand without even reading what my own "perspective is or has been.
I cannot tolerate chaos like that of BrotherD.CultLeader who speaks logical paradoxes and disrespects my productive fellow members.This chaos creates a disharmony that I and others cannot ignore.
So you are now discussing the Brother, Why?
The Brother is what he is. I am not his keeper nor am I his "acolyte". And he can handle his own corner from a biblical perspective and does it with excellence in my opinion. And speaking from my perspective I have found him to truthful and honest from my own experience and he will admit when he is wrong and is not embarrassed to admit that he cannot answer a question when he can't. Ans what is more impotent to me, he perfectly understand that the bible does hold mind-numbing " axioms".
If we can agree on common logic and mutual respect, I will answer any questions. ....logical paradox.
I have no problems with that. But lets not forget, I haven't disrespected you at all in the first place.
So. To me and from my own studies there are clearly parts of the bible to be taken literally and others that clearly not, in my own opinion, Do you agree?
OK , before we go back to my earlier questions, could you give me your definition "common logic" please?
And what is your "other" religion as per your profile?
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@n8nrgim
@Critical-Tim
n8nrgim wrote ; it's obvious the bible needs interpretedCritical-Tim wrote; I agree, but it is[....................] Stephen that insist otherwise.
Can you show me where have I done that?
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@Critical-Tim
All your beliefs have been debunked.Have they? Which ones and debunked by whom?Cited debunk: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9932/posts/411441
There is no debunking of my beliefs cited there I'm afraid, Critical-Tim. Just by you stating that "all my beliefs have been debunked" without proof or evidence is not debunking my beliefs. Could you offer an example. I would be very interested to see one.
It appears to me that it is you that is not interested in any type of serious discussion. I have asked you questions in relation to your own comments and you have simply avoided them ever single time. Why is that?
how pathetic can you get.
Lets keep it civil. I haven't insulted or attacked you.
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@Critical-Tim
All your beliefs have been debunked.
Have they? Which ones and debunked by whom?
how pathetic can you get.
Lets keep it civil. I haven't insulted or attacked you.
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
IS THERE ANYONE ELSE LIKE "CRITICAL-TIM”
Well Brother D. I am still waiting for "Critical -Tim" to tell us why the bible "Must be interpreted"? As in the title for his own thread.
Critical -Tim wrote: Why the Christian Bible must be interpreted.
Instead, he appears to be attempting to drag me into an ongoing spat he has with yourself and before I had even made a post on this thread. I have only asked a question or two and he has resorted to calling me "pathetic" for no reason that I can think of?
Also I find very odd that he has told me that " all of my beliefs have been debunked"#35 . This is strange considering he has only been a member here for 5 months and of his 24 threads has only contributed three threads in the religion forum with only a single one of those dedicated to Christianity; this thread.
One could be forgiven if they thought "Critical - Tim" had been here for years. I mean, has he read all of my 200 threads in the religion forum?
IS THERE ANYONE ELSE LIKE "CRITICAL-TIM”
There could well be, Brother D.
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@Critical-Tim
Tradesecret wrote @Critical-Tim: I am not a fan of the KJVTradesecret also wrote:The Bible is a primary source for me.#28TheBible is clear from my point of view.#51I am comfortable with our English bible translators and their attempts to convey the right balance as they understand it.#39I hear god's word primarily through scripture whether it's being read or preached Ihave never had a personal communication from God without theScriptures being involved #36The authors in the bible are pretty clear about what they want to communicate.#62Every word of God remains flawless#49Well, I for one, do not believe that the bible is ambiguous at all. It is clear. Crystal clear in fact.#55In my view, the Bible is the best source for understanding the reason for the existence of the Sabbath. #38My view is that the bible is written by fallible men but that it is also breathed out by an infallible God. Like Jesus - it is both divine and human. The infallible God used fallible men to write his word to us - using their fallible tools and minds but nevertheless speaking the mind and word of God.Hence the bible is both infallible and inerrant. It is divine and totally perfect. It is its own measuring tool - making it inerrant. #9The Bible is a book that reflects life in all of its glory. It does not hide the messiness of life. It is a very real book and sometimes hard book. I think that adds to its character and integrity. I cannot say I hate discussing any passage - because from my perspective all of it is relevant and useful.#3Itis more correct that the Bible is used by God as a tool to bring about change in us. Its main goal is to proclaim theglory of God, yet, it also has other goals which ought not bedismissed. #2"I am no fan of the KJV bible" he says. I see. Ok.Stephen wrote : And the Reverend Tradesecret adds this beauty:I have never believed in religion. Religion ought to be abolished from my point of view.#52THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ from the person that also claims to be paid by Universities to teach and tutor on religious matters to hundreds of university students, which must include BIBLE (written in ENGLISH) study in one form or another. Is a Chaplain to his countries Armed Forces and is also a Pastor#20 that preaches to a congregation of over "300 worshipers" every Sunday.Yes, indeed all of this contradictory BS from the contradictory Reverend clown that also tells us:God moved in me and I was compelled to believe and now I am totally sold on him. It was not an experience - it was simply that he moved and I responded. And then the Spirit of God worked in my heart.#50Idid not choose God. He chose me. TheGod of the Bible chose me to be his #31I did not choose my religion. God chose me. I did not have the capacity or the ability to reject him. He outsmarted me. And now I am sold on him. #48But s/he says "religion should be banned" and that he is "no fan of the KJV bible"!you are a glutton for humiliation
If anyone has been humiliated on this rather interesting thread it is the Reverend Tradesecret and by his own hand. So lets keep it civil. I haven't insulted you.
God didn't speak in English, so it's an interpretation, which you quote from to paradoxically prove interpretation invalid.I see. So all the Bibles ever written in English are invalid, pointless , redundant and have no value whatsoever?if you had ever listened you would have heard it was my argument that interpretations are valid.
I see. So why even mention the language that god didn't speak in?
OK. Can you tell me what language "god" did speak in, when he spoke to Adam, Eve and Abram all those years ago in Mesopotamia?
your beliefs have been debunked.
Have they? Which ones and debunked by whom?
how pathetic can you get.
Lets keep it civil. I haven't insulted or attacked you.
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@Best.Korea
"Looking at his disciples, he said:“Blessed are you who are poor,for yours is the kingdom of God "Bible Luke 6:20
Who do you believe Jesus was talking about when he referred to " the poor"?
Jesus actually demanded people to give up on wealth. However, most of today's Christians think more about wealth than about God. Jesus would really hate them.
What do you mean by "give up on wealth?
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@Critical-Tim
What do you think?
What I think is irrelevant. But what I believe maybe a different matter.
I have good reason to believe that Jesus named Jesus/Yeshuah ben Joseph, believed or was led to believe himself to be a contender/ rightful heir for the throne of David.
I believe Jesus and John the Baptist were serious rivals.
I believe Jesus and or his disciples had a hand in John the Baptist death.
I believe that he had a band of merry men that he called his disciples, which simply means followers, of which he had maybe hundreds , as did John the Baptist.
I believe Jesus was crucified along with two other rebels, one that also happened to be named Jesus, for crimes against Rome.
I believe Jesus survived the crucifixion with the help and assistance of some of his "secret disciples".
I believe that he may well have been present at the fall of the city of Jerusalem 68/70AD and was the one to have handed over power to Rome.
I believe Christians have wrapped around a very human man a myth that precedes Jesus the Christ by many thousands of years.
And I believe the Old Testament - that is simply a book of war and conquest- is more honest and truthful than the New Testament - MINUSTHE MIRACLES!.
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@Critical-Tim
@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Tradesecret wrote @Critical-Tim: I am not a fan of the KJV
Tradesecret also wrote:
The Bible is a primary source for me.#28
TheBible is clear from my point of view.#51
I am comfortable with our English bible translators and their attempts to convey the right balance as they understand it.#39
I hear god's word primarily through scripture whether it's being read or preached Ihave never had a personal communication from God without theScriptures being involved #36
The authors in the bible are pretty clear about what they want to communicate.#62
Every word of God remains flawless#49
Well, I for one, do not believe that the bible is ambiguous at all. It is clear. Crystal clear in fact.#55
In my view, the Bible is the best source for understanding the reason for the existence of the Sabbath. #38
My view is that the bible is written by fallible men but that it is also breathed out by an infallible God. Like Jesus - it is both divine and human. The infallible God used fallible men to write his word to us - using their fallible tools and minds but nevertheless speaking the mind and word of God.Hence the bible is both infallible and inerrant. It is divine and totally perfect. It is its own measuring tool - making it inerrant. #9
The Bible is a book that reflects life in all of its glory. It does not hide the messiness of life. It is a very real book and sometimes hard book. I think that adds to its character and integrity. I cannot say I hate discussing any passage - because from my perspective all of it is relevant and useful.#3
Itis more correct that the Bible is used by God as a tool to bring about change in us. Its main goal is to proclaim theglory of God, yet, it also has other goals which ought not bedismissed. #2
"I am no fan of the KJV bible" he says. I see. Ok.
And the Reverend Tradesecret adds this beauty:
I have never believed in religion. Religion ought to be abolished from my point of view.#52
THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ from the person that also claims to be paid by Universities to teach and tutor on religious matters to hundreds of university students, which must include BIBLE (written in ENGLISH) study in one form or another. Is a Chaplain to his countries Armed Forces and is also a Pastor#20 that preaches to a congregation of over "300 worshipers" every Sunday.
Yes, indeed all of this contradictory BS from the contradictory Reverend clown that also tells us:
God moved in me and I was compelled to believe and now I am totally sold on him. It was not an experience - it was simply that he moved and I responded. And then the Spirit of God worked in my heart.#50
Idid not choose God. He chose me. TheGod of the Bible chose me to be his #31
I did not choose my religion. God chose me. I did not have the capacity or the ability to reject him. He outsmarted me. And now I am sold on him. #48
But s/he says "religion should be banned" and that he is "no fan of the KJV bible"!
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@zedvictor4
Would be great if GODDO.Spoke West Mids.And it said unto AdamYow Yow.
😂 luv it , Vic.
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@Critical-Tim
God didn't speak in English, so it's an interpretation, which you quote from to paradoxically prove interpretation invalid.
I see. So all the Bibles ever written in English are invalid, pointless , redundant and have no value whatsoever?
All comments regarding Christian scriptures and interpretations can be addressed here.Now, let us begin.
Can you tell me what language "god" did speak in, when he spoke to Adam, Eve and Abram all those years ago in Mesopotamia?
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@Critical-Tim
I was asking a relevant question about God's Holy scriptures,Ok lets start beginning with "god's holy scriptures". Who says they are "god's Holy scriptures"?They are God's Holy Scripture as part of the religion, I don't have any rational explanation, people who are Christians simply do it out of faith.
So you don't know who says they are God's holy scripture? Although you have claimed they are.
Can you explain to me why it was that god required a vile, vicious, and torturous blood sacrifice of his "son" before he would forgive and save us from our sins?
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Jesus and I have such great plans for poor Critical-Tim, where he said that he will not run away from me, like the Bible inept Miss Tradesecret had to do to try and save face in front of the membership!
I have been following this thread Brother D.. And I have asked my first question. There is so much to ask regarding Critical-Tim's responses/answers to members here yet very little (if any) in the way of supporting evidence for said responses or answers.
As for The Reverend Tradesecret, with all that alleged theological training and miraculous capabilities for " memorising the bible", i.e.
Tradesecret wrote: Ihave been taught to memorise the bible from very young. I have readthe bible numerous times. I try and read the OT once every year andthe NT twice a year. I know it reasonable well and can evenread Hebrew and Greek. #52
s/he is a spent force, if ever s/he was one to begin with.
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@Critical-Tim
I was asking a relevant question about God's Holy scriptures,
Ok lets start beginning with "god's holy scriptures". Who says they are "god's Holy scriptures"?
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@YouFound_Lxam
And god doesn't seem to have taken into account or mitigation and has totally ignored the fact that Eve was indeed deceived by one of his own sons, if the bible is to be believed.Satan want a son, he was an angel.
And the angels were sons of god. learn your bible.
Are you just going to blame all of your bad decisions on other people just because they decived you?
If I commit a crime unwittingly on the deceitful advice of others, then yes I will blame the deceiver.
So you didn't do it, the devil made you do it.
The devil didn't make them do it, did he. He deceived them into doing it. The serpent was a very wise creature and much wiser that these two brand new humans that had only been around for a few (biblical) days. If the bible is to be believed.
It was no one else but god that was the cause of mankind's fall. He is the creator of all things including evil. Isaiah 45:7, if the bible is to be believed.He is. But does that mean he is evil?
Not necessarily, but it make him responsible .
So god had to create a decision for humans in order to give us free will. Him vs evil.
And you have good BIBLICAL evidence for this decision, do you?
Answer me this, who was created first- the Angels or humans?
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@Vegasgiants
Canada’s house speaker apologises after praising Ukrainian veteran of Nazi unit
Jewish groups voice anger over standing ovation for Yaroslav Hunka, 98, after Volodymyr Zelenskiy speech
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has apologized on behalf of Canada's Parliament after a veteran of Adolf Hitler's Nazi forces was included in an event last week honouring Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
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And just as odd is the whole Canadian parliament honouring nazi Yaroslav Hunka by giving three standing ovations just last week.
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Miss Tradesecret is a hypocrite again relative to her statement above when she ungodly admitted that she was a sexual deviant, and with family members: https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEGUEW9
That wasn't the last time that our resident Reverend Tradesecret has shown his/her nasty and perverted true colours either , Brother D. And notice too that the Reverend "chosen by god" tells us in that link that s/he is "Indian". So s/he's not Australian or a new Zealander as s/he has also claimed to be.
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@Best.Korea
And not a word about it on UK Mainstream Media.
But they will keep pushing the war in the Ukraine which has battalions of Nazis!
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Ethnic Cleansing 'Happening Right Now' as Armenians Forced from Christian Homeland.
More than 100,000 Armenian Christians are fleeing their homes in Nagorno-Karabakh, desperate to escape the arrival of the Azerbaijani[Muslim] army.
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
MISS TRADESECRETS POST RELATIVE TO JESUS’ ASSUMED DEATH: “In the Christian message, the God of the universe, suffered the most agonising death, to bring reconciliation between humanity and God.”
I am still waiting (over 40 years now)for any Christian to explain to me why it was that god required a vile, vicious, and torturous blood sacrifice before he would forgive and save us from our sins?
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
We Christians DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL as Jesus' inspired words so state! Remember when I easily buried the #1 Bible fool Miss Tradesecret upon this topic in the past, where she had to leave this forum to take a needed break from her Bible ignorance? Now, the equally Bible Stupids®️ YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker want to take Miss Tradesecret's place in also being Bible stupid and ignorant!JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS STATE SPECIFICALLY: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Ephesians 1:11) Key word: “PREDESTINED” where Jesus’ Jewish creation as Christians have no free will because Jesus determines in advance to His purpose in what He wants our lives to be!
Indeed, "predestined" is certainly the key word there Brother D. If someone else had pointed out the bleedin' obvious I don't doubt for a second that the Reverend Tradesecret would have asked for the definition of the word "predestined", which is always the Reverends default.
So to save some other poor sod from having to suffer the insufferable Reverend Tradesecret trying to come across as educated and intelligent , here are the definition/s of the word Predestined:
Foreordained; Decreed.
Foreordained. To ordain or appoint before; to preordain; to predestinate; to predetermine.
Decree. Determined judicially; resolved; appointed; established in purpose.
As in;
Job 22:28 - Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee:
Luke 2:1 - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Job 28:26 - When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:
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@YouFound_Lxam
If I command that you not do something or you will die, it has nothing to do with free will. Gen: 2:17The not what is taking place though.If you put yourself in a risky situation by your own free will, then someone comes along and gives you a way out, that is not threatening, that is loving.
That is what exactly took place.. The two brand new-sparkling humans didn't put themselves in the garden where god knew there was a talking serpent lurking.
I understand that you want to exonerate your god from all guilt of murder but the fact remains that only god has the power over life and death, if the bible is to be believed.He has the power over life and death. But what happens when God gives us free will. Now, we can choose which path to take. He has the power over it, but he let's us choose. He gives life not death. We choose death and he gives life.
How many times!!? It is not free will if it comes with the threat of the penalty of death.
Just because he has the power over life and death doesn't mean he will use it unjustly.
He served out death sentences to two people that was on the other end of HIS OWN SON'S deceit.
And god doesn't seem to have taken into account or mitigation and has totally ignored the fact that Eve was indeed deceived by one of his own sons, if the bible is to be believed.Satan want a son, he was an angel.
And the angels were sons of god. learn your bible.
Are you just going to blame all of your bad decisions on other people just because they decived you?
If I commit a crime unwittingly on the deceitful advice of others, then yes I will blame the deceiver.
So you didn't do it, the devil made you do it.
The devil didn't make them do it, did he. He deceived them into doing it. The serpent was a very wise creature and much wiser that these two brand new humans that had only been around for a few (biblical) days. If the bible is to be believed.
It was no one else but god that was the cause of mankind's fall. He is the creator of all things including evil. Isaiah 45:7, if the bible is to be believed.He is. But does that mean he is evil?
Not necessarily, but it make him responsible .
So god had to create a decision for humans in order to give us free will. Him vs evil.
And you have good BIBLICAL evidence for this decision, do you?
Answer me this, who was created first- the Angels or humans?
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@YouFound_Lxam
It can hardly be free will if it comes with a threat ..... of death. Gen: 2:17It's not a threat, it's a choice.
If I command that you not do something or you will die, it has nothing to do with free will. Gen: 2:17
I understand that you want to exonerate your god from all guilt of murder but the fact remains that only god has the power over life and death, if the bible is to be believed.
And god doesn't seem to have taken into account or mitigation and has totally ignored the fact that Eve was indeed deceived by one of his own sons, if the bible is to be believed.
It was no one else but god that was the cause of mankind's fall. He is the creator of all things including evil. Isaiah 45:7, if the bible is to be believed.
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@ebuc
memorizing Yeats and Emerson so he could speak flawlessly in class.
Didn't do him too well then did it?
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
YouFound_Lxam and Sidewalker want to take Miss Tradesecret's place in also being Bible stupid and ignorant!
Well I am sure that they will both be pleased to hear that they have a long way to go yet. Neither YouFound_Lxam nor Sidewalker are worthy enough to untie the sandals of our resident Pastor and Chaplain, Tradesecret when it comes to bible ignorance and duncery.
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Okay, since it doesn't matter to you in which God you were referring to that exists, therefore you want to know the best debates for an unmentioned God by you, then your request cannot be truly answered?
Fair point, Brother D. I had to scratch my had at the reply from Sum1hugme.
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