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@Polytheist-Witch
Jesus may have simply just passed out from the scourging and the crucifixion. Didn't the Romans use a type of smelling salts?
And wasn't Hyssop offered to Jesus while he hung there on the cross? This would have caused him to pass out. Was Jesus saying " I thirst" a signal asking for the Hyssop to be administered that would cause him to pass out giving only the appearance of being ' dead' only to be resuscitated some time after he was taken down and why his legs were not broken?
“Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled,saith, I thirst.
Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop,and put it to his mouth.
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost”. John 19:28-30.NKJV
“Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs”.John 19:32-33.KJV
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@Polytheist-Witch
No sure what resurrection really means
I have to wonder if the common members of Jewry actually understood the difference between resurrection and resuscitation?
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@Tarik
So what do you say to those who believe in a God not depicted in The Bible?
Who are you referring to when you say _ "those who believe in a God not depicted in The Bible" ?
There are millions that believe in the god of the bible, they just won't accept what THE BIBLE shows his real nature to be and that there is nothing "all loving" about him. He is a jealous egotistical, vain god of war. He makes all of this clear.
Did it ever occur to you that anall-loving God can also want the beings He loves to have the freedom to make their own choices?
That has to be the biggest cop-out theist ever come up with. I have heard this BS excuse so many times. Tell me, how is it "free will " if it comes with a death sentence? Again we see the free will excuse used for gods own failings are utter nonsense.
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@Tarik
Why does God have to prevent every evil thing from ever happening to prove He is all loving?The bible doesn't ever say that " god is ALL loving". In fact, the bible makes it perfectly clear that god is a "jealous god of war". And there are stories IN THE BIBLE - that prove just how insignificant life is to him and that us mere mortal humans are literally 10 a penny.Have you never read the sad story of Job or Lot?None of that answers my question.
I think it does. Who said god has to " prevent evil things happening to prove he is all loving". Christians on the other hand will have us believe that " our father loves us" but he does have a funny way of showing that. Killing 10 children for a bet is not showing love.
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@Timid8967
You are the one quoting the bible -
That is correct, on a forum about religion. Where-as you believe it shouldn't even be discussed at all because is all that does is "give it air to a myth",and would prefer any discussion on the scriptures and Jesus "be closed down"#16 yet here you are creating a thread of your own to discuss god.
like it means something to you.
Opinion. Doesn't count for anything, sunshine.
It does not support your case.
What case?
Yeah, I have read the bible once - from cover to cover. It is not like I have not glanced at it in other places since - or that I don't have access to commentaries etc. My brother -was a fundy and was trying to convert me for years.
So?
I still think you are a freaking nightmare.
Your nightmare? Why? is all I have done is shown you for what you really are.
This thread is not for people like you - atheists who are dogmatic in their opinions.
This thread is for anyone that is interested.
It is for theists who want to prove that god is real.
That's nice to hear but you appear to have totally forgotten about your own earlier statements princess.
I have put the challenge out there - and hopefully some will attempt to do so - so that others like you and me are able to remind them that proof is proof.
So are you now saying then that the theist do indeed have the burden of proof? Or are you just discussing here what counts as proof according to only YOU?
Listen. the BIBLE makes the claims about the existence of god. Christians believe what the BIBLE says about god and all of his wonderous works. The burden of proof is on them, as much as you are slyly trying to tell us that "we" and "us" should take the burden.
I think the best place for the bible is on a burning pile of books.
Opinion again. And I disagree. It is a history of sorts; it has some historicity in my own opinion, and I am not into burning such books .
It has caused more harm than many others.
It has. But didn't you just say that you "don't support my case" when I spoke of the bible being responsible for what Christians believe.
How much airtime do we need to give to these things -
Why do you believe there should be lines and time limits? Are you pack peddling now ? Are you saying that the scriptures and Jesus and god should be discussed and not "closed down"?
that will enable us to find reason - proof - real proof.
" us" again. Proof of what exactly?
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@Timid8967
christians pull up the big three. All knowing, all powerful, and all benevolent.
But isn't that because the bible says he is these things.
John 3:20 " for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything".
Jeremiah 32:17 " Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you."
And there are many verses that proclaim gods benevolence , especially towards those that "love him"?
But I suppose you can be forgiven for not knowing these details considering that you tell us that you only read the bible once, would you?
You cannot blame the Christian for believing what he believes. In my own opinion it is the bible that is responsible.
It is not up to the atheist to prove god is a lie. Or the "non theist" come to that. As much as you are slyly trying to push the idea that it is, with this thread.. You are a clear as a sheet of glass. And your other comments on this forum prove this is your sly agenda and what you are proposing.
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@Tarik
Why does God have to prevent every evil thing from ever happening to prove He is all loving?
The bible doesn't ever say that " god is ALL loving". In fact, the bible makes it perfectly clear that god is a "jealous god of war". And there are stories IN THE BIBLE - that prove just how insignificant life is to him and that us mere mortal humans are literally 10 a penny.
Have you never read the sad story of Job or Lot?
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen has a biography or not because he is an Atheist where he is hell bound upon his demise.
I am, - if the bible is to be believed - hell bound - as you say , Brother. I can live with it. But you are not the only person to suggest as such : The Reverend Tradesecret, showed me his true colours when I had him on the ropes .
"the serpent, satan, - he is the accuser and you follow after him. you are his disciple. From my point of view - he is slime. You know like the stuff we find after a snail has passed by. creepy. disgusting. ugly."#24 Tradesecret
They all masquerade as lovely and gracious and tolerant of others views until you show their bible ignorance to their own embarrassment and then they start spewing bile as can clearly be shown above #272
dimtim couldn't hold himself together too long could he?
He came onto the religion forum, bumped up some 30+ threads - while stating we shouldn't " give oxygen to" things we don't even believe and "should be closed down"#16 and then homed in on me and my threads with niceties. #141 Timid8967 and he is that thick that he believed I fell for his shite.
And then it wasn't too long before I called him out as a fraud. #184
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@BrotherDThomas
Timid8967YOUR SORROWFUL QUOTE RELATIVE TO MY DISTINGUISHED POST #266: "Meow."ethang5, he was easily run out of this esteemed forum because of his outright Bible stupidity and ignorance, and subsequent to his never ending bans, he has failed to return to save what face he had left. The irony and comedy is that you want to be like him?
. Poor ethang5 and Tradesecret are still healing from my continuous Bible slapping them Silly®️ along with many other members of this forum doing the same, and that is why we haven't seen them return. Praise Jesus' revenge upon this ungodly duo!
Indeed Brother, and the Reverend Tradesecret proclaims earnestly how he aspires to be just like the vile Ethang 5 #76 . Yes Brother, Ehang5, that believes "Onlysheep or soldiers get killed by jihadists". #154. I had to remind this vile person that " hundreds of thousands of those "sheep" are of his gods own flock.
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@Timid8967
I never said otherwise.Well actually I suppose I was using sarcasm, which obviously went over your head.
Nothing that comes from you goes over my head, sunshine. Anything you say wouldn't go over the head of an embryo. You are even shite at sarcasm and it didn't take me too long to show expose you for what you are.
Now take your argument somewhere else and have a little respect for someone else's' thread.
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@Timid8967
As I said before you are a FREAKING genius.
No I'm, not
I am just a lot sharper than you will ever live to be.
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@PGA2.0
but he certainly wrote about Him,
I keep telling you. I have read all of the available works of Josephus. He mention nothing of a dead man rising back to life in 30 AD and being present at the fall of Jerusalem in AD 66. And you haven't proven that he was either.
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him,even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mournbecause of him." So shall it be! Amen. <<<<< If this was meant only spiritually what were the supposed to be "looking " at."Look" does not have to mean physical sight. Look, I'm making a point.
You are barrel scraping . " LOOK" is clearly an instruction . "Eye" is physical it is not the minds "eye". " look and see" are physical. You really are struggling. You are doing exactly what I know all theist to do when stumped by your own scriptures , YOU begin to write that which was never written in the scripture..
And YOU claim to know in the 21century what those that actually walked and talked with Jesus in the 1st century , didn't know themselves..
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@BrotherDThomas
It's uncanny in how you remind me so much of the total Biblical fool Tradesecret who changed from being a male, to a woman, and then unknown, especially with your specific syntactical sentence structuring and in not having a biography.
You are not on your own there , Brother. Dimtim is almost a clone of the Reverend chaplain Tradesecret in his use of language, isn't he? Here is just one of a few dimtims quotes that so remind of the fraud Reverend Tradesecret:
#243Fora matter of interest, after reading some of Tradesecret's posts- which are on balance, ok, I would be happy, no pleased to be mistaken for him or her. Yet, despite your compliment, Iam unable to accept such an accolade. Yet I see he ripped manya hole in your sorry arse on many occasion.
Tradesecret: "Ethang5is a good friend of mine. I have know him for a significantperiod of time. And if you think we are like each other, that is a huge compliment for me. If I could be more like him, I would". #76 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5359-a-fallen-fine-tuned-universe
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@BrotherDThomas
PGA2.0,When are you going to stand up for your Satanic Preterist Faith and actually start a thread upon it, where you can tell 99.99 percent of pseudo-christians that don't follow your FRAUDULENT Preterism faith that they are "Whistling Dixie" in their beliefs relative to Jesus' forthcoming 2nd coming? Whereas to you and your ungodly division of Christianity, Jesus already made His 2nd coming in 70 AD, and therefore non Preterists have absolutely NOTHING to look forward too!What gives, can't you find your "big boy" pants and perform this simple act of defending your comical faith with its own thread?
.
He won't be doing that anytime soon Brother. He claimed once that he already done so, but then failed to produce the link to his non existent thread. And the only reason he has no opposition - on my own thread https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5599-no-show is simply because theist who believe he is wrong simply do not want to agree with me. Which only shows the pigheaded and ignorance of theists that will cut off their noses to spite their faces.
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@Timid8967
The real god is more of a bystander who sometimes intervenes,
What is or who is "the real god"? And do you have any examples of this"real god" intervening in human affairs?
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@Timid8967
it was the Brother - not you who revealed my ignorance.
So someone else has noticed then.
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@Timid8967
It is obvious that Jesus' disciples did not understand.
I laugh when people profess to understand in the 21st century what even the bible says the disciples of Jesus couldn't understand1st century.
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@Timid8967
Thanks for revealing just how ignorant I am.
And you are more than welcome, dimtim
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@PGA2.0
I showed you that Flavius Josephus makes no mention that a stinking and rotting corpse came back to life physically , and physically shared a meal with friends, had his physical wounds poked and prodded physically and then physically went up into heaven only to come down again on a cloud, physically.you seem to think Josephus had a stake in confirming the biblical narrative, although he does in many ways.
Nope. Stop being so ridiculous. I am saying the complete opposite. Flavius Josephus had NOTHING to say on the matter at all, did he. AND you are simply ignoring the PHYSICAL.
Every eye will see him and he will return the way he went.
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn
because of him." So shall it be! Amen. <<<<< If this was meant only spiritually what were the supposed to be "looking " at.
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky?
This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
Yes good question isn't it, why were they "looking" skyward?
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@PGA2.0
. You don't understand the culture of the time, thus the audience that Jesus was addressing and what such as statement as "coming in the glory of the Father" meant to them.
And to his annoyance, neither did disciples understand a word Jesus said, if we are to believe the scriptures ,- BUT YOU DO? !!!!!! some 2000+ years after Jesus is said to have walked the earth!!!!?
You never countered my argument by showing you knew what Jesus was speaking about.
I did. I said that you regurgitating unreliable and ambiguous cherry picked verses from the same unreliable and ambiguous source is not proof of anything,
Instead, you took your 21st-century understanding and applied it back then.
"Every eye will see him" return, says the bible, but not a single written record.
You demonstrate you have little understanding of the background that Jesus refers to.
Your opinion of what you think I do or don't know, isn't proof that you have proof.
Jesus and the NT writers continually referenced the OT.
Yes they did. And the reason they did this was to make the OT prophesies ` fit` their own narrative and agenda and candidate.
But lets no derail someone else's thread with anymore of your nonsense.
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@Timid8967
You seem awful defensive of these totally unreliable and ambiguous half stories that make up these scriptures that you don't believe, have mocked and find confusing and contradictory . Not to mention irritated and annoyed at people "giving them air ".My point was giving air time to nonsense - is a mistake.Just like people give air time to Nazi Propaganda. The best way to stop something burning is to stop giving it oxygen. Complaining and raising questions about Jesus and the bible obviously draws people to it. And some people will use this fuel to burn an entire new way of life. That was my point.
And that is the reason you decided to bump up some nearly 30 +threads on a religion forum,when you first joined, is it. OK
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@Timid8967
Timid8967 wrote : What is the evidence that Jesus ever existed? #14There is nothing conclusive as far as I am aware.Timid8967 wrote : So why give air to a subject that ought to be closed down? It seems to me - the more you bring this sort of stuff up - the more air time and the larger the myth becomes.
Why ought it be closed down? And not discussed?
Don't you think it right that people should be criticizing and question these scriptures or simply airing their own opinions about Christ and the bible in general?
It appears to me that you want to close down all and any debate about the Christ and the scriptures , yet after reading it only once you tell us that you don't even believe the bible#18 and find it "confusing and contradictory"#186
And you have mocked and doubted the crucifixion too, haven't you? .#101
You seem awful defensive of these totally unreliable and ambiguous half stories that make up these scriptures that you don't believe, have mocked and find confusing and contradictory . Not to mention irritated and annoyed at people "giving them air ".
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@PGA2.0
Are you denying Josephus witnessed the destruction of the city and temple by the Romans?
Nope and you know I am not, so stop being so ridiculous. . You have said before "Josephus describes it in much detail".#26 <<< this is of course simply bare faced lie. So lets not go over that again or I will block you.
I showed you that Flavius Josephus makes no mention that a stinking and rotting corpse came back to life physically , and physically shared a meal with friends, had his physical wounds poked and prodded physically and then physically went up into heaven only to come down again on a cloud, physically.
You see THE BIBLE CLEARLY states: Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:11. That will be physically.
AND DON'T FORGET THAT >>>>> "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen."
Yet not a single "eye witness" stopped to think to record this miraculous and momentous event; not even the one that "pierced him"? Strange do you not think that these writers wrote many things down about the Christ when he was walking around telling people to take up their beds, curing only a few lepers, and making wine for his friends to get down their necks, but we have not a single eyewitness account of this miracle of miracles and Jesus and his army of angels coming on or out of the clouds, not one.
You must do better PGA 2.0. Even your new found friend doesn't agree with you (he just doesn't want to agree with me, that's Christian bias for you) and neither do the other half of your outfit in Preterism.
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@Theweakeredge wrote:-->@PGA2.0Nah, Jesus said he's be back and the rapture would happen. I mean... you can insert your fanfiction in, but that doesn't change the original text
Nice.
Which is what the devout Christians continually attempt to do when they rewrite and put words into the mouths of the authors and biblical characters that make up these scriptures. Indeed, one Bible ignorant fool believes that if we don't understand the scriptures in their "original Greek" then we will never understand what the scriptures are talking about at all.
And I say fool because just in that one retarded comment he had obviously didn't realise that he just rendered every single bible ever written in the English language pointless and obsolete.
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@PGA2.0
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@TheUnderdog
I'm agnostic and I think we need a law based on the 10 commandments of the bible.
Well the first four are all to do with obedience to this vain jealous god of war before we even get onto the - thou shalt not's.
- I am the LORD thy God.
- No other gods before me.
- No graven images or likenesses.
- Not take the LORD's name in vain.
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What is your favorite piece of scripture and why?
Mathew 22:9 in part. Jesus replied [to the Sadducees], "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures........."
why?
Because it sums up every Pastor and Priest that I have ever had the pleasure to discuss these contradictory, vague, unreliable, ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures- with.
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@Timid8967
There is a difference between believing the bible to be true or false as opposed to understanding what any particular author is attempting to say.
So what is it that you believe King David is trying to convey to his readers?
I don't believe the Manifesto Communist by Marx either - yet I can understand what he is attempting to say.
So you don't find these psalm confusing at all then? That is great news. So explain then what it is you believe that King David IS actually conveying to his readers .
I can say that I believe he is trying to say such a thing - without saying I believe it is true.
Of course you can. But what is it that he says in this psalm that causes you to believe that he is speaking and predicting the Christ Jesus' suffering on the Cross?
When I referred to David, who traditionally is the author of the Psalms, as referring to a Roman Cross, it did intrigue me.
And this "intrigue" caused you to automatically believe King David was talking about the Christ Jesus' suffering on the Cross at the hands of the Romans some 1070 + years in the future?
Yet, Castin informed me that others back in David's time also talked about crosses, not necessarily Roman Crosses.
So did I and before Castin did at post 12. But you ignored my point of crosses and crucifixion ;
I wrote: "But it is not certain he was thinking "roman" crosses" is it? Crucifixion was by all accounts not a Roman invention, but a Persian invention of torture? But please feel free to correct me on that. #11
I think Castin makes a valid point.
As did I and before Castin. The difference is that both Castin and I knew and you didn't. This maybe because of your dismissive attitude towards the scriptures?
I really don't care about the rest of your post. My error in history was revealed to me and now I am less ignorant.
Of course you don't. Because you are still as ignorant. And your "error" was revealed to you by me, sunshine.
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@Timid8967
I have nothing to add to your opinion.
Well it appears to me that you were pressing a point with King David and his psalm as if you believe King David had predicted the Christ Jesus' suffering on the Cross?
Is that what you are saying or not?
If you do have reason to believe that then you won't discard what else he says in his psalms will you? Such as the Christ Jesus will never be harmed at all, by anyone or anything. Which could lead one to believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross after all? Couldn't it?
And didn't Satan say to Jesus "it is written that the angels will save you if you toss yourself off a roof or high place"? Matthew 4:6 Well that certainly would fit with what the Psalms of King David says, now wouldn't it?
After all , why would you choose to believe one psalm supposedly written by King David and not believe another? That would-be "cherry picking" wouldn't it?
You do know these psalms don't you? Although you tell us that you only read it once you regard the bible as just another book among many in the world? :
Yes here we are:
Timid8967 wrote: "why you would think I would believe the bible. It is a book,much like many books in the world. It is full of myths and legends.And other stuff." #240
and that you " found it to be unbelievable and contradictory"?#186
Interesting what you said there about it being "contradictory". Because as I have pointed out, one psalm written by king David clearly appears to contradict another psalm said to be written by him doesn't it?
But then you do tell us that you also find the bible "confusing " too, don't you, `Tim `?
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@PGA2.0
I see.
You still cannot produce one single eyewitness to any of the catastrophes that were supposed to accompany the ghostly second coming in AD 66.
Well come back when you can.
"Butthe day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens willdisappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed byfire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laidbare".
2Peter 3:8-10
2Peter 3:8-10
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@Timid8967
if David existed,
Did he exist though? You can't seem your make up your mind, and you tell us that you don't believe the bible, #18 don't you? Not to mention that you also tell us that ;
"As for the bible - yes I have read it. Not suggesting i know it well and I don't pretend to understand it. It is quite confusing and to me contradictory". #186
and prophesied that someone in the future would be pierced by a sword after being nailed to a cross,
But was it David's prophecy? You haven't established that yet? Nor established if he lived. And are you sure that the prophecy was speaking of Jesus? How do you know? Or are you just relying on what could be a rare coincidence?
it pretty much accounts for half of the Roman slaves who died on the cross. But would David know and understand a cross with its piercings? Good question. Probably unlikely.
So by this are you suggesting that David ( who may or may not have existed)was somehow seeing into the future and referring to Jesus being crucified and speared while hanging there on the cross some 1070 + years in the future?
The writers of the gospels of course knew the Jewish bibles and would have been able to fit its narrative with whatever story they had in their own time.
Yes they certainly would have , wouldn't they? This probably accounts for those contradictions you mentioned here#186
Why would David have been thinking about Roman Crosses - when the Romans were not in power then - and the crucifix had not been invented.
But it is not certain he was thinking "roman" crosses" is it? Crucifixion was by all accounts not a Roman invention, but a Persian invention of torture? But please feel free to correct me on that.
What is interesting is the Roman Cross. That is the intriguing part. How can a Jewish King predict and almost provide an emotional experience of the cross?
I think you are trying to press a point without admitting it. Simply say so. Do you believe the psalm was a "prophesy" pertaining to Jesus in the future or not?
But this does not prove God. It only proves that David had a vivid imagination.
So are you saying that is all it was, "a vivid imagination" on Davids behalf - if he existed of course.
That is all we can really get from David's writings - vivid imagination and coincidence.
Ah there it is. It was all Davids imagination... But do we know for sure that those Psalms were written by King David. You are not even convinced that he even existed are you?
Personally, I find it odd that a once simple "shepherd boy" could read or write in the first place. But that is just me.
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@zedvictor4
Trades[ecret] gone.
Don't count your `chooks` Vic lad. Tradesecret is far far too arrogant and ignorant and up his own jacksie to be able to be gone for long. He can't control himself.
He won't be able to resist the opportunities that arise on religious forums such as this to show off his qualifications or his imagined authority in all matters biblical.
"after reading some of Tradesecret's posts - which are on balance, ok, I would be happy, no pleased to be mistaken for him or her".
"Ethang5 is a good friend of mine. I have know him for a significant period of time. And if you think we are like each other, that is a huge compliment for me.
If I could be more like him, I would" .
Kin-ya-tell who it is yet?
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@Timid8967
Why do keep harping on about Tradesecret?
Well he is a perfect example of the braindead and bible ignorant clowns that I often come across in this field. Of one that claims to be"qualified" not to mention "an authority" on all things biblical.
Are you drawing a presumptious conclusion based on the fact that I mentioned Theiring?
Not at all. It is that when YOU mentioned the theologian and Biblical exegete specialising Barbara Theiring, I though immediately Australia! because she is Australian, you see. And then I remembered that is where that pompous prick the Reverend Pastor Tradesecret told us he comes from, who you had mentioned and asked about earlier in this thread. . The coincidence didn't hit me right away. I never did ask the the bible ignorant idiot pompous ponce if he had met or known her. I wish had now.
Oh yes and the fact I might be or he might be Australian.
Are you?
There must be only two or three people in Australia and we all have two heads and eat raw goannas.
So you are Australian too then. Do you have two heads or just lots of faces? Or many hats to wear on any given day?
For a matter of interest, after reading some of Tradesecret's posts - which are on balance, ok, I would be happy, no pleased to be mistaken for him or her. .......Perhaps you think I am........ Ethang5? I noticed you liked to keep them two together.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIVE THIS COINCIDENCE I CAN PROMISE YOU;!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tradesecret: "Ethang5is a good friend of mine. I have know him for a significant period of time. And if you think we are like each other, that is a huge compliment for me. If I could be more like him, I would". #76 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5359-a-fallen-fine-tuned-universe
HOW ABOUT THAT THEN FOR A COINCIDNCE. that^^^^^^^^^^ is exactly what Tradesecret said about his vile buddy ethang5.
That mask is sure slipping now, princess. isn't it?
Yet, despite your compliment, I am unable to accept such an accolade. Yet I see he ripped many a hole in your sorry arse on many occasion.
Not that I remember. Still,I am here and he isn't, is he?
It must be all that bullshit work-load and charity work and tutoring and lecturing and farm work and court cases and other lawyer work he has to handle and a family too. If he hadn't been such a complete and utter braindead wanker of a bible ignorant Reverend , I could have admired him.
He or she is clearly a theist - and Zed makes the point that he is a dedicated one at that. Apparently he believes in god everyday of the week and not just sundays.
Well you would have thought so. But he knew hardly anything of these scriptures. And him being a man of the cloth too. He even bragged about his charity work when his god tells him he shouldn't. See here>>
“So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honoured by men". Matthew 6:2-4 . I mean, hadn't this bible fraud remembered the bible story of the widows mite?
""Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else. you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.Mathew 6:1.marvellous, here is god telling him to be quiet concerning his charity and he goes a computer and shouts about it all over the World Wide Web!
I on the other hand - do not make such a claim. I have indicated where I sit. And others on this site can make their own judgments.
You have and they can, if they are bothered . And its good that you have indicated where "you sit". You have said that you have read the bible once and don't believe it. That couldn't be more straightforward could it? You are a non believer of the bible. You do seem little unsure about where you stand on god to me though. But never mind, that is just me.
You are the one continue to find reasons - yes go looking for them - rather than answer and address the questions put to you.
What reasons? Reasons for what? I don't really have to answer anything do I? Seriously, I don't do I.? You see I question the claims made in the scripture . I am not the one who wrote the text I am not the author.
I am waiting - I wonder what your response will be - "I don't recall seeing any answers" " you never asked me any questions". " I have answered everything you asked".
I can't answer what I haven't been asked. I must have forgotten what it was you asked with me being so tied up explaining to you who the Reverend jumped up prick, and bible ignorant Pastor Tradedesecret is. What ever he was teaching all those students at all those Universities one can only wonder. And getting paid TOO!!!
Oh and PGA2.0 still has your number.
I don't think so. But I got yours , princess.
Thanks Stephen, just when I thought everyone in this world had become too serious - you just brighten up my day.
And you are very welcome. dimtim
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@Timid8967
Good you don't feel victimised..
Well I am pleased that has finally sunk in.
It was YOU that said that " you wish that I would be More easily agreeable with the bible". Why? What business is it of yours.? What difference would that make to YOUR belief? This is why It means something to me.Mountain out of a molehill.
So you want to forget you said that . I see. But I won't let you forgot that until you have answered my questions raised by your own comment.#25 Why is so important to you that that you "WISH" that my thoughts, theories and opinions were more agreeable with the bible that you say that you have only read once and don't believe?
Take Mark 13 for instance. You use it to say that Jesus lied - yet when challenged on it - you go boo hoo stop being stupid. I never said that.I have seen a few Pastors and Priests buckle and "boo hoo" and go awaol when they have been shown to be absolutely thick as shite dunces and bible ignorant when it comes to the subject they should know better than I.Indeed , there was one Pastor and Chaplain here recently that seems to have left the forum altogether, No reason given, but I can only guess that it was because his bible ignorance was exposed often and on a regular basis.And yet that is exactly what you did. Took your baseball and just got annoyed.
I don't remember getting annoyed. I remember it being the opposite way around. Or do I rememebr anything to do with a baseball bat. You seem very concerned about this Pastor and Chaplain that was always bragging out his impressive CV and qualifications. Would you like to see it? I'll dig it our for you when I get a chance.
You know, that the most interesting thing about this Pastor/ Chaplain, Tradesecret was that he honestly believed that "words were just words and couldn't do anything". #45 Tradesecret. He even said the same about the bible! .#3 Tradesecret. I am sure that with you not believing the bible would agree with him . But that aside, seriously, can you believe that a man of the cloth saying "words are just words and can't do anything"?
Well, what could I do other than show him what the bible actually says about the power of words, yes! again, I had to correct this dunce of a braindead Pastor/Chaplain that the "lord" himself disagreed with him. Such as Proverbs 18: 21 and there was Roman's 1:16 very powerful I thought,what do you think? >>
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek". <<<See that. The bible say words AND the gospels are "Powerful". Matthew 4:4 "“‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”. But the Reverend Tradesecret with all of his qualifications, just simply ignored what the BIBLE ITSELF and GOD! has to say on the matter of the power of words.
And his stance on God appears to be completely opposite to your own belief or non belief about god, he says #15 "Most of the world just happens to be right about God because for them god is right there". but we know that counts for nothing doesn't it. As you say, "so what"?
I asked him once how he found time to do all this things he had listed that he does . I was very impressed. And you will be too. Have look Starting here #20 & here #91 and especially here #25 . if you don't want to open the links I have this for you. He is a very interesting and EXTREAMLY busy man , is the Reverend. maybe that is why he has taken some time off. here you are:
Lets see:
Starting with his education and without being asked or any prompting he freely told me and this forum :
"I studied and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church". #91
"Study the original languages, translate them to English", #25
"I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation".#20
" my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. "#20
"I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications". #20
which all appear to entitled him to
" charge universities when they request me to lecture to them [ their students]". #20
But we are not finished . he has another string to his bow does the Reverend? he is also a fully qualified and practicing lawyer too!!!!
#20 "I am a lawyer". And indirectly you issue some good advice to us when you tell us this " I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police".
" I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case" . #20
AND on top of all this he committed a serious offence in the eyes of god, I think.Matthew 6:4. Yes he went bragging about his charity work;
" I devote a significant amount of my resources in trying to prevent abortions from happening. I also devote a significant amount of resources to programs which enable people to adopt children. I also devote a significant amount of my resources towards helping people who are left in homeless situations and are expected to be looked after by the government and its welfare programs.
Iprovide resources to my local church as well who have significant means of assisting people in impoverished places around the world and locally.
I have responsibilities for things and people I have been put in place with and are connected to".
#64 and on top of this he runs a farm too.
I am puzzled as to why you would think I would believe the bible. It is a book, much like many books in the world.
Indeed, this is the attitude the Reverend and Pastor Tradesecret had towards his holy scriptures. So at least you both have that in common.
It is full of myths and legends.
Yep. And you appear to know it so well after just reading it "only once".
It is not meant to believer or disbelieved.
I see. So what do you believe it was meant for considering it has been preached for thousands of years in every western school and church and Chapele.
It is meant to be read as understood by its authors.
That is interesting. and how do you know that. are you saying that priests and vicars and pastors and chaplains do not understand it?
If I read a textbook on a subject in science, it might be a question of believing it after reading it and understanding its arguments. The Bible is a whole lot of random authors telling a story - but not one we have to believe or not believe.
Is it. I see.
If only you were original. Barbara Thearing or whatever her name is seems to have read your posts.WHAT A COINICIDENCE!!!!! . I mentioned this author to the bible ignorant Pastor and Chaplain here calling himself Tradesecret., as he is Australian too!!! Well,so he told us.Yes I have read some of the work of the Australian historian, theologian, and Biblical exegete specialising in the origins of the early Christian Church. Fascinating stuff, I found. But believable ? I don't know. I still have some of her work knocking around somewhere. She is qualified to speak on such matter, though, just like the Pastor and Chaplain Tradesecret that I mentioned above, he too was qualified to "minister " and "lecture" on matters biblical. But it turned out that he knew absolutely fk all about his subject. But got paid all the same. That is fraudulent , if your were ever to you ask me.You mentioned a couple of posts ago that you thought Jesus did not die but survived the crucifixion and lived for several decades later. That is classic Barbara Theiring. I have wikapedia as well as most people on this forum.
I see. But I didn't mention Theiring, you did. And yes, like you said, believe or not believe. Who's to say she's wrong or right. She seems a lot better qualified that the Reverend Pastor tradesecret. But that is just my own opinion. I do wonder where he went. no he has been brought to mind. I didn't notice the bible ignorant prick had even gone until the Brother mentioned it.
She is as daft as most of the fundamentalists in her blind faith to prove she is correct.Well each to their own I say.We all have a different way of looking at these scriptures and other theological literature. Take yourself, you read it and simply don't believe the bible and dismissed it.And fair play I say at least you gave it a go... pga2.0 read it and it has caused him to believe it in a different way to others .. Where - as I believe it but not in the way it has come down to us and has been preached, taught and " tutored" on for millennia.I like reasoned arguments - which is why I find you amusing.
Nice. I am pleased I haven't offended you in any way.
I never said I believed the bible.
I know. Quite the opposite. You have told us now on may occasions that you do not believe the bible.
It is myth and legend.
Indeed. In part.
Fundamentalists don't like to use reason or logic.
I am not a fundamentalist. I simply believe that there is (some) historicity to the scriptures.
Theiring - doesn't use logic either - she is like you - gross speculation masquerading as dogmatic truth.
No. I have made it clear - and you keep ignoring it - that I claim nothing I say is true or provable. <<<, the that sink in.
Just on this thread alone I must have reminded you three times - now four - . I cannot prove the beliefs, opinions, ideas or theories that I have about the Jesus story.
And what Theiring does or doesn't do, has no baring on my own thoughts or opinions on the Jesus story. You are barking tree there princess. What I believe I glean from the unreliable ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures.THEMSELVES!
Is it a coincidence that both of you deny the same?
And many others appear to have come to similar conclusions. But that is their "bunny" to argue about and defend isn't it? Not mine.
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Post 157 - "The bible says he didn't show when he promised to show. The Jews complained about this no show, they didn't complain because he did show, now did they, you silly little man."
Yes it does. Can you show me evidence that he did show before those hearing the promise from his own mouth had passed away? That will be a no.
Can you show me one single eye witness report from the time testifying that that seen Jesus returned from heaven on a cloud. That will be no.
I keep telling you. You have nothing .
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@Timid8967
That is why you sound like a victim. Poor little Stephen. No one can touch me.
I have said twice now, that I don't feel victimised at all. I am just fine and happy here in my own skin watching your arguments disintegrate.
PGA2.0 did not say that Jesus returned physically. That is you reading your own interpretation into his words.
Nope. And I don't believe that I said that he did say that. I am sure he made it clear that it was in the spiritual sense that Jesus had already retuned. You really need to read ALL of this thread before you start throwing accusations around. You are making yourself look stupid not to mention desperate. And I haven't said either way. NO, what I have said is that Jesus didn't die only to return in any shape or form at a later time.
He[PGA2.0] does not take the view that Jesus ever said he was going to return physically.
So? What's you point? If you have one? And he takes that view because he says that is what the bible tells him his fellow half and full Preterists, so..
Yes, I know your response will be - but millions of churches do. So what?
I agree, so what? Are they wrong? And my overall response has been consistent throughout this thread, that is, I don't accept his opinion that the dead and stinking rotten corpse of Jesus came back to life from being dead, physically shared a meal with friends, had his physical wounds physically touched and inspected, then ascended in "heaven", and came back down again some 40 years later to be present at the fall of Jerusalem in AD 66-70. Ghost or not!
Timid8967, wrote: More easily agreeable with the bible#25I love how you continue to quote this as though it means more to you than it does to me.
YOUR quote , not mine.#25. It meant a lot the first time you said it and the more your spout your shite the more it means to me. And here is why. I just can't understand why you would "wish" what I have to say would be "more agreeable with the bible", especially in the face of you making it more than clear that you do not even believe the bible.#18 So I agree, it means more to me, that it would you. But I think it bothers you that I throw it at you often as a reminder? get used to it , Princess, I do that a lot.
I have never said that I don't believe the bible, YOU said that you don't sunshine. I said I do, and I also said I don't care what it is you do or don't believe.
It was YOU that said that " you wish that I would be More easily agreeable with the bible". Why? What business is it of yours.? What difference would that make to YOUR belief? This is why It means something to me.
Take Mark 13 for instance. You use it to say that Jesus lied - yet when challenged on it - you go boo hoo stop being stupid. I never said that.
Remind me? Or is this yet another case of you confusing what I say with what I say the gospels actually state. And I don't think someone such as you could ever cause me to "boo hoo", princess. Although, I have seen a few Pastors and Priests buckle and "boo hoo" and go awaol when they have been shown to be absolutely thick as shite dunces and bible ignorant when it comes to the subject they should know better than I.
Indeed , there was one Pastor and Chaplain here recently that seems to have left the forum altogether, No reason given, but I can only guess that it was because his bible ignorance was exposed often and on a regular basis.
- rather than your imaginary made up stuff which might fire up a few atheists but only those who did not have a brain.
Imaginary , yes to an extent I agree. And I don't think that my "imaginary made up stuff" would be enough to "fire up" anyone...... except you it seems. Strange that is.
As I said, you make me embarrassed to be non-theist.
No. I think you can embarrass yourself without my help, Princess. In fact you have done so a few times already; getting all fired up because I have spoken my beliefs, that I admit I cannot support and only have coincidental evidence for. And saying things that don't agree with you and your new found buddy. No, any embarrassment is all your own baby, so you rock it. And here another one of my imaginings, I think it is a great possibility that Jesus had somehow had a hand in the death of John the Baptist.. but I cannot prove or get the pieces to fall into place?
Not enough to become a theist. But enough to find you a charlatan and a fraud with your own agenda.
You are entitled to your opinion of me , but it is all irrelevant, isn't it. Your low opinion of me doesn't make those unreliable ambiguous half stories that make up scripture any more true, do they?
I keep coming back to you now - because it makes me smile.
Oh well. Great! All is good then. And there was me, I was beginning to get the impression you didn't like me and wished I would go away or at least "wished I was more easily agreeable with the bible"#25
I can't wait to see the next edition of BS that comes from your threads.
Then wait no longer. Your wait is over. Hot off the press just yesterday afternoon >>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6056-and-a-great-power-was-given-to-him-why You will notice, that it is another question based thread with questions to it. But you would be wasting your time even looking at it as you have told us that you have only read the bible once and don't believe it anyway, haven't you? But have a go. You never known, you might just put on your Pastors hat and give it a go, or your Chaplains hat. I'm easy.
If only you were original. Barbara Thearing or whatever her name is seems to have read your posts.
WHAT A COINICIDENCE!!!!! . I mentioned this author to the bible ignorant Pastor and Chaplain here calling himself Tradesecret., as he is Australian too!!! Well,so he told us.
Yes I have read some of the work of the Australian historian, theologian, and Biblical exegete specialising in the origins of the early Christian Church. Fascinating stuff, I found. But believable ? I don't know. I still have some of her work knocking around somewhere. She is qualified to speak on such matter, though, just like the Pastor and Chaplain Tradesecret that I mentioned above, he too was qualified to "minister " and "lecture" on matters biblical. But it turned out that he knew absolutely fk all about his subject. But got paid all the same. That is fraudulent , if your were ever to you ask me.
She is as daft as most of the fundamentalists in her blind faith to prove she is correct.
Well each to their own I say.
We all have a different way of looking at these scriptures and other theological literature. Take yourself, you read it and simply don't believe the bible and dismissed it.And fair play I say at least you gave it a go... pga2.0 read it and it has caused him to believe it in a different way to others .. Where - as I believe it but not in the way it has come down to us and has been preached, taught and " tutored" on for millennia.
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@PGA2.0
You haven't shown OR proven that I have taken " biblical verses and twisted them into pretzels" have you? You are just leveling accusations at me out of frustration simply because I won' accept YOUR version of what certain biblical verses mean according to you and YOUR beliefs. And you have your new found buddy doing the same because he has run out of steam.I have given evidence of you doing just that.
No you haven't. Stop lying!
You insist that Peter is questioning the coming
Nope! Peter doesn't question the coming. And you won't find anywhere on this thread that shows that I have "asserted" or wrote that he did or has.
NOPE!!! I have said Peter is saying what " THEY" will say. Not what they HAVE SAID!<< past tense. FFS don't you know your own shite? LOOOOOOOOOOOOK >>> "They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."2 Peter 3:4 <<<< SEE THAT!? It says what what they will say, and NOT what they have said.
You are just as devious as your new found devious buddy that tries to put words into MY mouth because he too LIKE YOU cannot differentiate between what it is that I say and what I say the scripture themselves ACTUALLY say.
("Where is His coming) while you ignore what the rest of the chapter and epistle teaches.
I haven't ignored anything. I posted Peters reply directly from scripture and I called it a bullshite excuse for Jesus NOT returning at the time he had promised to do so.
And you still have shown how I have " twisted scripture into pretzels"
The mockers are questioning the coming,
SEE!!!? you are misreading what Peter is ACTUALLY saying. IT IS PETER THAT SAID there will be " mockers" that would question the no show. AND PETER also said what "THE MOCKERS" would say. He is speaking in advance. But you haven't even recognised that BIBLICAL FACT! 2 Peter 3:3" in the last days scoffers will come" <<< SEE "will" not "there are or have been" , all future tense.
and Peter is setting the record straight,
My arse. What Peter is doing is realising that there will be questions in the future if Jesus doesn't show and he is preparing his lame excuses for the dumb, superstitious, gullible illiterate of the time to swallow.
Do we read of any come back after Peter talks of them "forgetting" the 1 day = 1000 years, BS? NO we don't. And why do you think that is? It is because there were no mockers present and because he was speaking in the future sense. ie what he will say IF and when he was ever approached my "mockers" in the future. He was covering his bases as they all tried to.
And you still have shown how I have " twisted scripture into pretzels".
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@Timid8967
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no need to name call. That is why you sound like a victim. Poor little Stephen. No one can touch me.
More barrel scraping princess. Get over yourself. You are not as clever as you believe you are.
It simply reveals you can't stand being challenged.
But I haven't even been challenged. And I don't mind being challenged at all. I have been accused of "translating" and "asserting" things biblical. By you and you new found buddy. For which you have not shown one iota of proof. What have I "asserted" what is it you believe I have " translated"?
I am telling YOU and PGA that for very BIBLICAL that verse he produces as proof that Jesus has already returned in AD 66 - 70, that there are as many BIBLICAL verses produced by those that believe tells them that Jesus' return is due and is imminent of which I offered you just one single example of many. I didn't write those biblical verses, and I have used them as proof for a anything. I have simply shown the BIBLICAL verses that say Jesus didn't return when he promised he would.
Victim??? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
I don't feel victimised. But are you denying that the church has murdered millions of innocents over the centuries? I didn't put the Templars to the flame nor did I commit genocide against the Cathars for not agreeing with me. Nope, not me princess.
PGA2.0 is clearly the one on this thread with bible knowledge.
That will be the SAME BIBLE that leads him to believe that Jesus has already returned and leads you to say: " the notion that Jesus returning so soon after he left makes little sense.#141".
When I pressed you a little on this you simply replied :
Wow, well that was a well and truly and deeply thought through reply wasn't it? "A dumb thing to do". Breathtaking!!!
You make assertions and then when pressed deny you made assertions.
Nope. PGA2.0 keeps accusing me of the same yet when asked for evidence of my assertions and "twisting scripture into pretzels" he comes up empty.
I find it amusing that you think a seventh day adventist is somehow the mouthpiece of the church.
Only you know how or why you have come to the conclusion that I think that. Scraping the barrel is what I call that "assertion" if you ask me, princess.
I posted an example of ONLY ONE of many Christian branches that believe that THE BIBLE tells them that Jesus' return will be physical, and that it is imminent. I keep telling you, that is not my belief but theirs and it is they that interpret and believe what THE BIBLE says, not me. Why do you keep confusing what I say and what I say that the bible states? Or others state and believe?
I have told you. I don't don't believe Jesus even died on the cross. So there is no way that I am going to "assert" that he did die and was resurrected, went to "heaven" and came down again was and alive in Jerusalem 66-70 AD on a cloud and in spirit or physical form.
I only quote the scripture and ask questions. My own beliefs are irrelevant and I admit to not being able to prove a single part of my own beliefs. Is all I have are the unreliable, ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures. It is for the theist to " fill in the gaps", I can only guess and I admit as much. Anything I believe I have is or would be only circumstantial.
So don't waste your time poking and prodding me for answers that only the theist believes he can answer. Have you tried asking a Pastor, or a Priest to show you in the bible where it says Jesus' return was, or will, be a physical return ? What about your local Chaplain, is he up to it? Surely he is knowledgeable enough and can be trusted give you a reply to such a simple question?
Or you could simply keep "plugging at" good ole' PGA20.0 who believes he has already answered that question in his reams and reams of "codswallop" that he refers to as evidence and proof.
Most of the church think the SDA is a cult.
And many hundreds of Churches believe that Jesus' PHYSICAL return is imminent, so fkn WHAT!?
Cults - notoriously are doomsdayers.
Ok. Does that include Preterists, who, according to them, the world has already had its doomsday?
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@PGA2.0
You,1) take verses out of context,How? Give us an example.Okay, 2 Peter will suffice for the four points. .....Continued
But this doesn't show or prove how >>>I<<<< have "twisted scripture into pretzels", as you accused me of doing, does it! ?
What you have simply done here , again, is interpreted and presented your opinion and beliefs as fact. <<<<< That is what I would call "asserting".
You haven't shown OR proven that I have taken " biblical verses and twisted them into pretzels" have you? You are just leveling accusations at me out of frustration simply because I won' accept YOUR version of what certain biblical verses mean according to you and YOUR beliefs. And you have your new found buddy doing the same because he has run out of steam.
Like I have said. You can't prove those claims that you leveled against me so instead pile on more and more biblical verse s that only YOU believe prove your claim that Jesus returned already in AD 66-70. THEY DON'T PROVE JACK!
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@PGA2.0
Look up Top 10 Reasons Jesus Christ Never ExistedAdding your comments to this thread /#14 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5961-earliest-mention-of-jesus-chriI think your second link is bogus. I can't find it there.
maybe because the - S & the T - is missing off the end of the link.
Earliest mention of Jesus Christ
- Author:Nevets,18 days ago
try this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>14
Added04.19.21 01:20PM
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Revelation 13
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
(A) Who is the "dragon"?
(B) where did he get his authority to grant power to anything or anyone considering everything in the universe was created by god, and god is in charge, so THE BIBLE says. Colossians1:16
(C) What/ who is the beast?
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him". Revelation 12:9
I see.
So are we to assume this casting out was from heaven? As told to us here>> :Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! " ?
Morning Star, now that rings a bell. Yes here we are:
Jesus calls himself;
(Revelation 22:16) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Well that is interesting isn't it. Are there two people with the title "morning star"?
We know from THE BIBLE that Jesus himself claiming to be the one of the holders of this title. Is there another?
So it appears at least that we have Jesus with the titles Dragon, Serpent,Satan, Devil and Morning Star & Son of dawn.
But the verse says "4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:" Revelation 13
Is god in control of his own creation or not? And why would Jesus AKA Dragon who was " worshipped" and had the titles Dragon, Serpent,Satan, Devil and Morning Star & Son of dawn, even think it a good idea to unleash a beast that THE BIBLE states:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Why did god allow - his son by all accounts- to give power to and release such a great beast onto mankind and himself. What is the point and what was the purpose?
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@FLRW
Look up Top 10 Reasons Jesus Christ Never Existed
Adding your comments to this thread /#14 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5961-earliest-mention-of-jesus-chri
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@Timid8967
It is not your thread.
It is. Stop being a spoiled brat and pedantic.
Victim??? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
I don't feel victimised. But are you denying that the church has murdered millions of innocents over the centuries? I didn't put the Templars to the flame nor did I commit genocide against the Cathars for not agreeing with me. Nope, not me princess.
PGA2.0 is clearly the one on this thread with bible knowledge.
That will be the SAME BIBLE that leads him to believe that Jesus has already returned and leads you to say: " the notion that Jesus returning so soon after he left makes little sense.#141".
When I pressed you a little on this you simply replied :
Wow, well that was a well and truly and deeply thought through reply wasn't it? "A dumb thing to do". Breathtaking!!!
You make assertions and then when pressed deny you made assertions.
Nope. PGA2.0 keeps accusing me of the same yet when asked for evidence of my assertions and "twisting scripture into pretzels" he comes up empty.
I find it amusing that you think a seventh day adventist is somehow the mouthpiece of the church.
Only you know how or why you have come to the conclusion that I think that. Scraping the fkn barrel is what I call that "assertion" if you ask me, princess.
I posted an example of ONLY ONE of many Christian branches that believe that THE BIBLE tells them that Jesus' return will be physical, and that it is imminent. I keep telling you, that is not my belief but theirs and it is they that interpret and believe what THE BIBLE says, not me. Why do you keep confusing what I say and what I say that the bible states? Or others state and believe?
I have told you. I don't don't believe Jesus even died on the cross. So there is no way that I am going to "assert" that he did die and was resurrected, went to "heaven" and came down again was and alive in Jerusalem 66-70 AD on a cloud and in spirit or physical form.
I only quote the scripture and ask questions. My own beliefs are irrelevant and I admit to not being able to prove a single part of my own beliefs. Is all I have are the unreliable, ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures. It is for the theist to " fill in the gaps", I can only guess and I admit as much. Anything I believe I have is or would be only circumstantial.
So don't waste your time poking and prodding me for answers that only the theist believes he can answer. Have you tried asking a Pastor, or a Priest to show you in the bible where it says Jesus' return was, or will, be a physical return ? What about your local Chaplain, is he up to it? Surely he is knowledgeable enough and can be trusted give you a reply to such a simple question?
Or you could simply keep "plugging at" good ole' PGA20.0 who believes he has already answered that question in his reams and reams of "codswallop" that he refers to as evidence and proof.
Most of the church think the SDA is a cult.
And many hundreds of Churches believe that Jesus' PHYSICAL return is imminent, so fkn WHAT!?
Cults - notoriously are doomsdayers.
Ok. Does that include Preterists, who, according to them, the world has already had its doomsday?
But - I think I will plug away at PGA2.0 a little longer.
oh please plug away , but I should keep this in mind of your new found friend;
Timid8967 wrote:Hi PGA2.0If you want to me to discuss things with you - you need to make your posts shorter. I simply do not have the patience to read the long ones you post presently. Try 1 point at a time.Have you had an opportunity to read Beale yet? Or perhaps Hendrickson?I really would like to have your refutation of idealism before we go further.PGA2.0 wrote:Nope. I will leave it to you to defend, for now, since you think it is more plausible than Preterism and you are more familiar with it than I am.
Seems to me you have a stalemate, unless you drop your demands " before [you] go further" . #198 Timid8967
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@Timid8967
I think it is a pointless exercise to use this like you - to try and prove a point when clearly not every Christian reads it the way you are insisting.
How have I "insisted" ?
I am telling you what Christians themselves say proves Jesus' PHYSICAL arrival. And gave YOU just one of the many examples of what THEY THEMSELVES say and "insist" on HERE>>https://www.nadadventist.org/about-our-church/beliefs/jesus-is-coming-back#tooltip14_content
This is what THEY say- NOT what I fkn say. LOOK>>>> Jesus Is Coming Back To This Earth. And they quote all of these BIBLICAL verses that ACCORDING TO THEM and NOT ME, prove Jesus is coming back to earth in his PHYSICAL form.
The Savior’s coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide.
- Titus 2:13
- Hebrews 9:28
- John 14:1-3
- Acts 1:9-11
- Matthew 24:14
- Revelation 1:7
- Matthew 24:43, 44
- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
- 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
- 2 Thessalonians 2:8
- Revelation 14:14-20
- Revelation 19:11-21
- Matthew 24
- Mark 13
- Luke 21
- 2 Timothy 3:1-5
- 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
So you can take it or leave it princess, this is not my opinion, I am not "insisting" those verses prove anything and I didn't write those verses that THEY are claiming prove Jesus' PHYSICAL return to earth.
And reading those verses above - even the new ones you are talking about does not suggest Jesus thinks he is returning soon.
Not to you maybe. But they don't care what YOU think, and neither do I . It is what they believe in and what they believe those verses to mean to them, that counts , to them..
But your interpretation is yours.
No, they are Christian theists beliefs and their own interpretations. I have simply asked, just as those illiterate peasants of the past have asked Peter _" “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?." Notice Peter didn't mention anything about a return in the physical or spiritual? No, he just spouted a load of old shite saying words to the effect that they didn't understand or had "forgot" that "a day is a thousand years".2 Peter 3:4-10
You can hold onto it.
I hold onto nothing princess, I just believe another version of the Jesus story than the one that mankind had had "foisted" onto us for over 2000 years.
For me personally i could hardly care less.
Yes, you certainly come across that you "don't care less", yet you wish that what I have to say could be "More easily agreeable with the bible." #25 ? that's you not caring less is it!?
But hey what would I know - i obviously know nothing about the bible
And that is by your own admission.
- as you have clearly pointed out.
No. I think you shown that fact to us for yourself. I just reminded you of your bible ignorance. But don't take offence, there are Pastors and Priest and Chaplains that are as bible ignorant as you, so at least you have an excuse.
So good luck with your witch hunting.
" Witch hunt" That 's rich. I haven't tied anyone to a ducking stool or on top of a pile of wood and then set fire to it for not agreeing with me. That will be the Chaplains and the Pastors and the Priests of yore. I bet they just yearn for the past when they had full and total control over all mankind.
witch hunting.
Oh stop with the victimhood, your letting your mask slip again. I haven't attacked no one for believing in god, or Jesus or the scriptures. I have told you. It is the scriptures that I read, scrutinise and question . I am not interested in that fact they people have a faith, and that is what it is , faith, "a strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof".
So good luck with your witch hunting.
And you can feel free to leave MY thread at any time. I promise you, you won't be missed by me. Princess.
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@Timid8967
The point is - this is what you said and I am asking you to show me where these verses say Jesus is talking about a return to earth physically. This is your bunny, not billions.
I didn't say he will or has returned from the dead or heaven at all, in any shape or form. I have said that BILLIONS believe that>>>>>THE BIBLE<<<<<says he will and offer all kinds of verses that to their minds "prove" a physical" return And that is my point. ....such as :
"Menof Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking intothe sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."Acts1:11
He was alive and kicking and had been eating and talking and walking when he was taken into "heaven" according to >>>>>>THE BIBLE. <<<<<< and all sound very physical.
So can it be he will be returning in the same fashion... physically? Why the question about "looking into the sky", seems more relevant to me. It seems they are being told they were looking in the wrong place and that their lord and master Jesus hadn't even left earth at all? Maybe he had just gone into hiding until his "time had come"?
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.Revelation 1:7
Indicates physical , IF >>>>>> THE BIBLE<<<<<< is to be believed?
"On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem,and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west,forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south".Zechariah 14:4
Both feet standing on a mountain indicates the physical if >>>>THE BIBLE <<<<<< is to be believed.
The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name. Zechariah 14:9
King of the earth. Sound all rather , well earthly.
So this " bunny" is very much on the theist to prove and not for me to explain . I didn't write the bible that has been " foisted "onto mankind for over 2000 years and sometimes forced onto them at the pain of death and the risk of being burned alive. I have told you. I don't give two fks what it is you believe or don't believe. It is the scriptures that I read, scrutinise and question.
The Preterist believe >>>>> THE BIBLE<<<<<<<tells them that Jesus has already returned.
.
As for weirdness in Christianity - there is certainly plenty of it. Like in every other religion and non-religion. Take BrotherDThomas. Is he religious or not?
That's the person, the Christian and not Christianity, and I don't know anything about him apart from the fact that he seems to know these scriptures inside out, and you don't.
And I don't see much weird about a person that knows his subject regardless of the subject or if I believe it or not.
Christianity is defined as :
Christianity, major religion stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century CE.
So can you tell me what you find weird about Christianity? Or are you saying Christians are weird?
Can you link me back to where I said it makes no sense that Jesus returned so soon after he left? Let me see the context I wrote it in.
Yes. Although I had a few times already. It is exactly as you said it first time around #141 Timid8967 I am not sure how the "context" can be misunderstood.
How can I believe a book that is simply a story book?
Not for me to say is it? But it is for me to question any time I choose.
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@Timid8967
Where was he?Jesus said said to his followers that some of them would live to witness his return to earth:“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.Hi Stephen, I have read that verse and re-read that verse and yet I still don't see where it states that Jesus is returning physically.
But billions do. This is my point about how one religious faction reads these unreliable and ambiguous scriptures compared to another. Even Preterist can't get their act together, to agree on a date of this return - physical or not.
Take the this motely crew>.https://www.nadadventist.org/about-our-church/beliefs/jesus-is-coming-back#tooltip14_content They believe that: " The Savior’s coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide".
But it Interesting that you tell us all that you have only read the bible once and "don't believe it".#18
Maybe that has something to do with your own bible ignorance?
You haven't attempted to answer these questions raised by your own comments. I have asked you three times now. Why are you ignoring them.?
I think the notion that Jesus returning so soon after he left makes little sense.
I see, and what is it that causes you say that it "makes little sense" ?
No wonder we see so much weirdness in the Christian movement.
And what "weirdness" would that be?
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@PGA2.0
Tell me how does this>>>>>#194 <<<< nonsense of yours prove I have twisted anything into any shapeIt is not nonsense. Over and over in the NT, we are told of the symbolism, the typology, the shadow of the Old Covenant and how it pointed to something far greater, the Lord Jesus Christ and the transition between covenants.
But neither they nor YOU show how I have "twisted" anything, as you keep claiming I do, do they. Like I have said. One tells his mother one thing and another shows the complete opposite actually happened.
I keep telling to. you have proven nothing and haven't answered anything either as much as you and your new found friend believe that you have.
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Like you say, he[Stephen] just continually asserts biblical verses without any exegesis.You mean I put up and question BIBLICAL verses but don't interpret them like you do .. if at all? You have accused me above saying :" Stephen tries to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel."I asked you how I do that and for a few examples.#192I do give examples.
No surprises but you haven't quite understood what I have asked you.
I didn't say that YOU don't give examples. I have asked you to back up your accusations against me and give ME EXAMPLES of how I, according to you, " twist the Scriptures into a pretzel."? And you haven't done that because you couldn't do that. Is all you have done again is come back with further accusations saying :
You,1) take verses out of context,2) Collapse context,3) Ignore what this means to the 1st-century audience of address, the primary audience,4) You do not exegete passages of Scripture. You present them. You think just by quoting a verse; then it is plain to all. Remember that you are 20 centuries removed from that original audience. What did it mean to them? How would they understand Jesus coming in the Father's glory?
Lets see some examples of me doing what you are accusing me of. You can't can you?
Meanwhile lets look at this shite that you posted above.
You,1) take verses out of context,
How? Give us an example.
You,2) Collapse context,
How? Give me an example.
You,3) Ignore what this means to the 1st-century audience of address, the primary audience,
Now that is an interesting accusation. I think you mean that I DON'T accept YOUR interpretation of what certain things meant to a 1st century audience. You see, I am of the impression that people like you have a seriously bad habit of INTERPRETING the scriptures to fit your own narrative. Such as in this case of the failed return of Jesus.
YOU interpret scripture to make it say that Jesus has already returned. But clearly there are others, just as devout as you that INTERPRET the SAME SCRIPTURES to say that the second coming is imminent in my time. And I gave you examples.
You do not exegete passages of Scripture.
Why should I? I take it as it comes for the best part. BUT YOU! force it to fit your belief system and your narrative.
You present them.
Yes, I do. I present verses and question them , indeed almost all of my threads are questions, they are not interpretations of scripture. I have said, I leave interpretation to the liars, and the pastors and the priests. And you struggle with my responses when I question what YOU come back with. You just don't like it.
I don't accept your shite that a dead man came back to life and was present in Jerusalem in AD 66-70 and you haven't offered a single piece of evidence to show that he did. So just let me remind you of something. An empty tomb proves nothing but that a tomb was empty.
You think just by quoting a verse; then it is plain to all.
No. I quote a verses and then ask or hope the likes of you to or will explain it, AND YOU NEVER CAN, and certainly not without invoking the supernatural. As in your idea on this thread that Jesus has already returned from the dead and appeared in Jerusalem in AD 66- 70.
Remember that you are 20 centuries removed from that original audience.
How could I forget. You should take your own advice and remember that yourself.
What did it mean to them? How would they understand Jesus coming in the Father's glory?
Are you saying they didn't know? Well that wouldn't surprise me one bit considering that EVEN;
"The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about" .Luke 18:34
BUT YOU DO !!! 2000 YEARS LATER!!!!! don't make me laugh.
You know no more than those illiterate superstitious peasants and hangers on did at the time Jesus walk with them. That is why Peter was able to palm them off with his bullshite.
I keep asking you why was it that Peter had to "remind" anyone about one day being a thousands years? You haven't answered that. I asked you why they didn't know themselves that a day was a thousand years,? And you haven't answered that either. Did Jesus ever tell them that a day was a thousand years in the eyes of the lord?
So when you are ready , I would like your examples of me committing all those offences that you keep accusing me of. And you can tackle those few questions above too.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David” (Luke1:26-38)The throne of David was to be a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one.
I see so its back to the mythical and the supernatural and "in the sky" again. So why didn't the angel simply say so? Why not simply tell his Mother Mary the Virgin " He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest and inherit a heavenly throne of his heavenly father, god " but only after suffering betrayal, denial and treachery and after he had been brutally tortured and executed?
You really are full of it. Non of the above even indicates a "heavenly throne or kingdom of David in heaven". You are making shite up!. And wouldn't a heavenly throne be a throne of God?
Jesus was god also wasn't he? Why would he inherit a mere earthly mortal kings throne, a throne from king that had murdered his best friend so he could sleep with his wife, when he is believed to be a GOD! in his own right?? <<<<< this is why your version is utter bollocks!?
The throne of David was a very earthly throne , the bible makes that clear. A earthly throne for an earthly king of the Jews to sit on and reign over the Jews, on earth, from. On earth as it is in heaven, that is the will of god, if the bible is to be believed at all. Jesus was a king, or at least believed himself to be the rightful heir to the throne of a very earthly kingdom of a united ISRAEL and its throne. YES, that one, the throne of David, the one his mother was promised her son would sit on, and very much on earth.
And you still haven't proven that a rotting and stinking corpse came back to life, shared a meal with old friends, ascended into heaven, came down again on a cloud and was present at the fall of Jerusalem.
And you forgot to answer me why did the "angel of the Lord" not make any mention of this brutal, viscous and torturous ending for her son? So that he could return in AD 66-70?
And was Mary his mother one of those that lived to witness her sons return on a cloud? If fact where does the Mother of god feature in all of this once he returned? What about the absentee father Joseph, did he live to witness the return of his "son'" in AD 66 -70?
When you spout these verses that do not prove your claim at all is all they and you do is raise further questions.
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@PGA2.0
Like you say, he[Stephen] just continually asserts biblical verses without any exegesis.
You mean I put up and question BIBLICAL verses but don't interpret them like you do .. if at all? You have accused me above saying :
" Stephen tries to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel."
I asked you how I do that and for a few examples.#192
You didn't produce a single example of me "twisting scripture into pretzels" or anything else. No. What you did instead was post a load of nonsense that was irrelevant to the actual accusation that you leveled against me.#194 .
I gave you two verses from the bible and simply asked you to SHOW ME how I have twisted them. But you are too stupid to even realise that I hadn't even made a comment on either or interpreted anything excepting the fact that one verse says what was SUPPOSED to happen: Luke1:26-38 and another verse showing what eventually DID happen instead : Mark 15: 21–41
Tell me how does this>>>>>#194 <<<< nonsense of yours prove I have twisted anything into any shape?
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