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@ludofl3x
I find it odd that Abraham had such a short memory and was probably a nice obedient chap, but very dim.
God makes a covenant with Abram and promised to make him a great nation Genesis 12: 2. God then provides his old barren wife with a son and is ordered to name him Issac and also promises Abram _ " I will confirm my covenant with him (Issac) as a perpetual covenant for his descendants after him. Gen17:19 So we have a covenant to carry on with the unborn son Issac who became IS_RA_EL
BUT then! god orders Abram to sacrifice this only son Issac, the very son from which he promised a great nation would come.
Thicko Abraham didn't stop to think at all that if he was to kill his son as commanded, then there would be no great nation from Issac and that god would be breaking his sacred covenant that he made with him and his son Issac? He didn't even have the brains to remind god of the covenant that he had struck just 20 short verses before.
The apologists will no doubt have it that god can change his mind at any time because he is god, while telling us that god never changes his mind.
But this won't alter the fact that Abram was as thick as two short planks.
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@rosends
For the Samson question, start with this.
Sounds like a bit of a cop-out, to me rosi
Jesus is believed to have been to be a rabbi/teacher/ priest and probably a high priest although the bible never makes that clear at all.Well, believed by whom?
Christians. and maybe they have good reason to belive so. But like I have said, the NT like many things doesn't make it clear.
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This was extremely interesting from of your link one link above?
" Due to the special holiness which the Kohanim (priest) possess, they are forbidden from coming in contact with a corpse or grave. One who comes in contact with a corpse or grave contracts a spiritual impurity which lasts for at least seven days, and can only be removed through the ashes of the Red Heifer. The exception to this rule is if a member of the Kohen's immediate family passes away. In this case, out of respect for the family-member, the Kohen is obligated to attend the funeral and pay his final respects - despite the impurity which this entails.The Kohen Gadol, who is even holier than the average Kohen, can't attend a funeral, even if it is his own next of kin.
The only time a Kohen Gadol may be involved with a corpse, is if he encounters a Mes Mitzvah (a corpse that is strewn on the road, and no one else is in the vicinity to give it a proper burial). This is because the dignity of the Jewish body supercedes all other considerations".
So a priest cannot go near a corpse or a grave and Jesus is believed to have been to be a rabbi/teacher/ priest and probably a high priest although the bible never makes that clear at all.
This reminds me of something that I came across years ago where read that a Nazarite (aka a long haired warrior) couldn't go anywhere near a dead body or graves. Samson was a Nazarite wasn't he?
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@rosends
It must have been later when Israel had there first king that this sacred oil was also used to anoint kings into the service of god making them Messiahs also?Would this be a fair assumption considering the bible says so?The oil was used on the initial priests and the objects which were used in the tabernacle. It was then, moving forward, used on high priests and some kings. For a fuller list, see here.
Apart from temple duties, what other duties would the high priest perform in the times of kings?
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@rosends
Messiah is the Anglicized form of the Hebrew word mashiach (or moshiach, depending on accent).
Kings and high priests (up to a certain point) were anointed with a particular oil (shemen hamishcha). You can read about it on page 15 of this pdf
I think you meant P14 and telling ; [A] " The Torah records that the first Kohein Gadol [KG]was Aharon, the brother of Moshe and G-d awarded theoffice in perpetuity to his descendants (Vayikra 6). IDivrei Hayamim 23:13 reads, "The sons of Amram:Aaron and Moses; and Aaron was separated, so heshould be sanctified as most holy, he and his sons forever, to offer before the Lord, to minister unto Him,and to bless in His name for ever."
There was a person listed textually as having been anointed when he wasn't.
Who was that?
There is a separate notion that some people seem to have of "anointed with spirit" but I haven't seen that textually.
The New Testament mentions one that will anoint, well, just about any one with the "holy spirit". I think this simply means given a certain knowledge but would this make them also Messiahs?
I watched this very recently .
Rabbi Michael Skobac,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBSRiwy4T7k&t=599s << here at 4:50 in just the first 10 minutes it points out that Messiah just means "inaugurate into the service of god" via the application of "usually oil to someone or something" As were the candlesticks and the alter because they too had been "anointed"
It points to the making of the sacred anointing oil at Exodus 30:22 and goes on to giving instruction of what, is to be anointed.
And then, who is to be anointed at Exodus 30: with the same anointing oil it states :
30 “Anoint Aaron and his sons and consecrate them so they may serve me as priests. 31 Say to the Israelites, ‘This is to be my sacred anointing oil for the generations to come. 32 Do not pour it on anyone else’s body and do not make any other oil using the same formula. It is sacred, and you are to consider it sacred. 33 Whoever makes perfume like it and puts it on anyone other than a priest must be cut off from their people.’”
This then is in agreement with [A] above from your link.
So, on the human side of things it appears that this sacred oil was used only to anoint priests.
It must have been later when Israel had there first king that this sacred oil was also used to anoint kings into the service of god making them Messiahs also?
Would this be a fair assumption considering the bible says so?
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you said "I am saying because she has such a great unblemished integrity".
Can you find anything to the contrary. Because I can't.
You keep telling me that "they have no evidence" but you simply cannot know that,of course I know that.
GREAT!!!!! Then let us all see your evidence that they have no evidence although these million dollar lawyers say they have it .
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Even the most dense of Christians have managed through the ages to eventually grasp that the word Messiah means - anointed. It means the same thing in Greek by all accounts as it does in Hebrew.
But anointed into or, as what?
And who specifically are those anointed ones?
does to be a anointed messiah mean to be in the service of god.
So can we say priests are messiahs because they are in the service of god?
Are kings messiahs in the service of god? and can they go onto anoint others into the service of god?
Can anyone anointed by a priest be in the service of god?
Is it the duty of any of the above to anoint others as messiahs?
Do messiahs have different functions?
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@Tradesecret
You do realise that King Herod is talking about Jesus.
Of course I do.
Herod ( despite the fact Jesus and John were once alive at the same time) believed that John had returned and somehow possessed Jesus and " therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus]. And it is Herod's very first thought on hearing about the "miracles" Jesus was now performing.
Now whether this possession was true or false is not the point. Herod, it shows, had reason to believe it was John specifically because of what he heard about Jesus
You are either dense or refusing to see the obvious question that this enigmatic and ambiguous statement raises.
What are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus?
Herod had never met Jesus at this point. But he had though met John, and knew him well. He loved to converse with him. The bible even tells us that Herod protected John. So these " mighty works" instantly reminded Herod of John.
The rest of your post is utter clap trap made up on the hoof . Who wrote it for you? It is not coming across as your usual blundering stammering syntax, it is more garbled than is usual for you. Your qualifications are letting to down Reverend.
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@Tradesecret
The bible CANNOT cause anyone to do anything.Well any educated person will know that it can and does.. The words of the scriptures for instance "have caused Mopac" to want to be a monk. He has even given it a go and will be returning to his monk home in the near future..Another poster here claims that the words of just two verse of the bible in particular had "Caused him" to believe that the whole bible was true and to be the word of god.The bible even CAUSES people to want to do the "lords work". what does that mean? it means ACTING on words. So stop with your semantic lawyer bullshit.Words are influential and they are POWERFUL. Written Words can cause people to breakdown. Written Words can cause people to be brave. Written Words can cause people to do all sorts of things.But you simply didn't even consider any of this before making your stupid. thoughtless and pathetic throw away statement in your haste to defend your scriptures and your god.You have had plenty of time to come here to this thread and explain or even retract your pathetic and illiterate thoughtless statement. What ever caused you to come here this late in the game? Was it words written to you by someone else that finely caused you to face the charge of ignorance and thoughtlessness that I have brought against you.Your statement is wrong, totally. Words cause among many other things, death, even written ones. Your god calls himself "THE WORD ", why do you think that is Chaplin, Pastor Lawyer?Attacking me all of the time -NO, NO. NO. Stop playing victim, again.You mean quoting you a lot of the time. such as here >>> "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3When we all know "a book full of words" can cause many things to happen.LOL!LOL -LOL
You can "lol" as many times as you wish , Reverend. But your statement is simply wrong not to mention thoughtless and irresponsible. And you a dealer in words.
The words in the bible have caused people to want to spread the word of god and those same words in the bible has caused them to want to do his work. Why do you think that this urge is referred to as a " calling, " Reverend?
I think you have lied about yourself from day one Tradesecrete. Not that it is important to me. You may well work part time for the Samaritans or even The Red Cross in NSW or Sydney either is to be highly commended... if this be the case of course. But as for the rest of your imagined status and imagined qualifications, you have shown everything BUT intelligence or knowledge of the scriptures considering all the fields you claim to be qualified in, here >>> #20
You never did say which academics & tutors that you actually studied under , did you?
I studiedand was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church.
#91
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4953-apostasy-from-true-christianity?page=4
Imagination eh.
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@ethang5
Jesus existed before He appeared on Earth, and still does now.
Whatever caused you to believe that? Where is your evidence?
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@Utanity
If the words of bible are to be believed then John had once been performing the same stunts that Jesus was now performing. The bible make that clear.
14 And king Herod heard of him [Jesus]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus].
So the question has to be :
>>>>>. what are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus? <<<<<
One has to remember Utanity, that the Reverend Tradesecret wasn't there and neither was ethang5. But Herod was wasn't he? He was right there, amongst all the death and turmoil that Jesus ' appearance had caused.
And remember too that Herod knew John personally. He liked to talk to him and he even protected him.. It never mentions who he was protecting him from , maybe Jesus or his rival disciples? Who knows?
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@Tradesecret
The bible CANNOT cause anyone to do anything.
Well any educated person will know that it can and does.. The words of the scriptures for instance "have caused Mopac" to want to be a monk. He has even given it a go and will be returning to his monk home in the near future..
Another poster here claims that the words of just two verse of the bible in particular had "Caused him" to believe that the whole bible was true and to be the word of god.
The bible even CAUSES people to want to do the "lords work". what does that mean? it means ACTING on words. So stop with your semantic lawyer bullshit.
Words are influential and they are POWERFUL. Written Words can cause people to breakdown. Written Words can cause people to be brave. Written Words can cause people to do all sorts of things.
But you simply didn't even consider any of this before making your stupid. thoughtless and pathetic throw away statement in your haste to defend your scriptures and your god.
You have had plenty of time to come here to this thread and explain or even retract your pathetic and illiterate thoughtless statement. What ever caused you to come here this late in the game? Was it words written to you by someone else that finely caused you to face the charge of ignorance and thoughtlessness that I have brought against you.
Your statement is wrong, totally. Words cause among many other things, death, even written ones. Your god calls himself "THE WORD ", why do you think that is Chaplin, Pastor Lawyer?
Attacking me all of the time -
NO, NO. NO. Stop playing victim, again.
You mean quoting you a lot of the time. such as here >>> "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3
When we all know "a book full of words" can cause many things to happen.
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@ethang5
Why are you afraid of me being on your threads?
What ever gave you that idea. you think far too highly of yourself. I am not afraid you. You simply have added you pointless input and now you have no reason to be on this thread.
Of course ,if you want to carry one with your pointless comments I couldn't stop you if I wanted.et
Your wrong because Jesus did miracels in John and then they came out of him. Jesus made the wine then he gave it to John and John did the miracle so that means your wrong.John did not perform any miracles. Duh!
Well Herod is proving you totally wrong. Herod claims that these "miracles" that John had once performed were "now showing in him" [Jesus] .
You can dance around that all day. I don't bother me. It is there it is in the bible and the bible is "never wrong" according to you Christians although its full of ambiguous statements and half told stories.
HERE have another stab at it. I have highlighted a the relevant parts for you
Now, after the death of John the Baptist King Herod on hearing about these so called miraculous wonders being performed by Jesus (he had never met him personally at this point Luke 23:8) appears to be frightened out of his skin. Why?
Well because the bible states this:
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.
14 And king Herod heard of him [Jesus]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him [Jesus].
15 Others said, That it is Elias. And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.
16 But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead.
>>>>>. So what are the "mighty works" that John performed that are now - by Herod's own words - manifesting themselves "in him"/ Jesus? <<<<<
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@ethang5
It was you that come onto my own thread.This isn't your thread.
I know. And I haven't said it is. I said it wasn't yours. Keep up sunshine.
I didn't invite you and this thread isn't yours.I didn't say it was. Your invite doesn't make me have to come, just as your request for me to leave doesn't make me have to leave.
I know. I said I DIDNT invite onto my thread but come to my thread you did. You have just got so excited about being back that you have already forgot where and when you have posted and on whose threads you have been making yourself look silly on... already.
I can take it then that you will not be engaging me any more.I will post anywhere I want at any time I want till the mods show me that its a coc violation. I suggest you do the same.
Well that was a quick change of heart and mind wasn't it.
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@ethang5
You made a claim. You haven't supported your won claims. It is a baseless claim made only from what only you believe you heard , seen or read. It is a totally unsupported claim.Why do you think I need to prove it to you?
OK. So if I make a claim any claim about anything are you going to accept my claim without any supporting evidence or proof?
You were asked it the bible true?I was asked, "What, exactly, is your basis for believing that the Bible is True?" I gave my basis.
You was also told that you couldn't use "because the Bible says so". But that didn't stop you telling us that it was verses in the bible
to believe it was true. Which, to my own delight, you did by quoting two verses from the bible that tell you us caused you to "find out" it is true.
I see no reason I need to "prove" my basis to you.Do you know of a reason I should?
Yes, you have made an unsupported claim. You demand poof from others when none has been provided, indeed you have in the past had the nerve and told people to prove your own claims!!!!
Marvelous how magical a few words in a book can be isn't it, Ethang5 ?You may not know it, but literature is a multi-billion dollar industry, and all those magical movies start out as words in books.
Oh and I agree with you totally. I know very well, Ethang5 . I can't say the same the reverend Pastor and Chaplin friend who made the stupidest claim in the history of claim making when s/he told us that the bible is only a book AND "can't cause anything". And her being a lawyer too,!!! that deals in words for a living! You couldn't make this shite up could you?
Here you are right from the Reverends mouth >>> "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3
Yet here you are, telling us that just 40 words out of the 783,137 in the bible, caused you to "find out" the bible was all true.
Here you go, just in case you forget the words from the bible that caused you to believe it was true>>
Is the Bible True? What, exactly, is your basis for believing that the Bible is True?Amoung others, this....Jhn 7:16 - Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.Jhn 7:17 - Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.I found out.
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@HistoryBuff
How does reading a bit about those 2 cases convince you she is above reproach?
You don't read very well do you. I simply said that " I have found nothing that discredits this woman's credentials or her integrity".
And we will just have to see how all this pans out , won't we. You keep telling me that I haven't proven anything and although I know the a affidavit is classed as evidence ON ITS OWN - I don't fkn have to prove anything at all.. You keep telling me that "they have no evidence" but you simply cannot know that, yet managed to ignore the fact that you too are as much in the dark as anyone outside the law suits, including CNN.
This lawyer says she has evidence. I, at this moment in time have no cause to disbelieve her.
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@zedvictor4
Do we now have the new mellower Mr Ethan?
Don't kid yourself, Vic.
He always starts off like this after a lengthy ban.
He will slip back into his old skin of telling you to prove his case for him, rewrite the scriptures. Put words into the mouths of the biblical authors. Put words into the mouths of the biblical characters. Put words into the mouth of Jesus himself .
Exhibit double standards. Exhibit hypocrisy. Answer a question with a question of his own. Respond to genuine questions with sarcasm. Redirect the question to something he believes is easier to answer. Ignore the questions altogether and don't answer it.
Pretend he were never asked a question. Try to shame the questioner. Persistently address the questioner in derogatory terms, then complain that he are being picked on when the compliment is returned. Often use the 'answer me first' tactic. Redefine words to suit his narrative and agenda. Accuse others of doing what it is he constantly does himself . Doctor members comments to enable him to respond to a question.
Purposefully derail a thread where you have embarrassed him or he has embarrassed himself or he has been embarrassed by another member. And the one that they all continually use, and go into denial and tell bare faced lies
And all within a few posts of his return, mark my words.
On his return he said words to the effect that I will have to wait along time before he engaged me , yet had forgot that with minutes of his return had homed in on one of my own threads. he couldn't keep away and he will exhibit all the above mentioned before the night is out, if he hasn't already
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@BrotherDThomas
I find it difficult to see how any so called - Christian, whether it be a qualified Priest a Pastor or even a Chaplin can even speak this way never mind act this way. It is simply disgusting, and to trivialise rape as flippantly is beyond belief! I can't believe what I have read in that link , is this true , Brother?
That said, The Roman Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witness have a problem with child rape too. They have their fair share of sexual deviants including pedophile perverts, and child rapists, Brother.
I wonder, did Jehovah Witness for himself these crimes against these children committed by those of his own disciples?
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@ethang5
So you have never contemplated those awkward stories above and contradictory verses above then. I should have known better than to expect you to take them on,If it bothers you that I won't play your never ending musical chairs, you will be bothered a lot.
It was you that come onto my own thread. I didn't invite you and this thread isn't yours. I can take it then that you will not be engaging me any more.
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@ethang5
None of it.Then why do you think I need to prove anything to you?
You made a claim. You haven't supported your won claims. It is a baseless claim made only from what only you believe you heard , seen or read. It is a totally unsupported claim.
You were asked it the bible true? You have said two verses from the bible convinced you the bible was true. This goes nowhere in proving the bible is true.
YOU HAVEN'T PROVEN THE BIBLE IS TRUE!!!!
I find it interesting that you say that you read the bible and just two verses caused you to believe it was all true.
Yes indeed, the bible that is only a book and "can't cause anything" according to the Pastor and Chaplin Tradesecrete #3 "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything" .
YET here you are, an example to the contrary and after just two short verses from the bible, fully converted and preaching and teaching to others and telling the world about how great your god is and how much he loves us and defending him and his words to the hilt.
Marvelous how magical a few words in a book can be isn't it, Ethang5 ?
Yet you still haven't proven your claim.
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@HistoryBuff
what are you basing that on?
Well I have found nothing that discredits this woman's credentials or her integrity.
You are saying that she would torch her relationship to a high profile client because his lawsuits weren't technically accurate?
No. I am saying because she has such a great unblemished integrity and that if she believed Trump would lose his law suites she would instruct him on the matter and recuse herself as any self respecting lawyer would do. If she believed she and her client were on a hiding to nothing. FFS read what I write .
The only other high profile stuff I can find that she did was convincing michael flynn ................................
I read this about her from wiki
Sidney Katherine Powell is an American attorney from North Carolina who served as an Assistant United States Attorney for 10 years before establishing her own private practice in Dallas, Texas. She is best known for successful appellate reversals, for prosecuting Jimmy Chagra in 1979, and for representing General Michael Flynn in 2019 and President Donald Trump in 2020. In the weeks after the 2020 election, she joined Trump's legal team to challenge the results.
She doesn't come across to me as stupid or grasping for money or work.
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@ethang5
will find out whether my teaching comes from GodI found out His teaching comes from God.
Yes , you keep saying. I don't believe you because you haven't show any proof, Ethang5
How?Read the text. Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God.
What text and from where? Was it from just those two biblical verses that you mentioned above ? Or are there other parts of the bible that caused you too realise the bible was true?
No. Just because you say " you found out", hasn't and doesn't prove a damn thingDoesn't it depend on WHAT I found out?
But haven't you told us already what you have "found out" here >>>>>>>>>>>> " I found out His teaching comes from God. "#11 ethang5
But haven't said from where or from whom or when you "found out", have you? You keep avoiding that part.
What makes you believe that you have found out anything? Where did you find it out, who or what revealed it to you ? Did this supposed revelation change your life?Irrelevant to the OP's question. [....................] Jesus said that if I choose to do the will of God, I would find out whether His words were true.
What is the will of god? And do you now live by at all times the word of god?
I found out.
Yes you keep saying but haven't gotten around to proving it?
That is what makes me believe the bible is true.
I have already pointed out to you that simply saying I found out ` something` doesn't mean that you have proven the bible to be true.
What part about that bugs you?
None of it. I find what you have said above extremely fascinating. I really do.
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@HistoryBuff
Is she one of those "frivolous lawyers" you mentioned or is she competent and capable with any integrity?she is going to defend her client and push his goals because that is what she is paid to do. And, to an extent, that is what she is supposed to do. Lawyers are supposed to act in the best interests of their client even if their client isn't acting in the best interests of america.
Yes it was me that pointed that out that fact to you. You ignored my point except to say there are "frivolous lawyers that will do anything to get paid".
Still ; this lawyer comes with a pedigree and some integrity from what I see and read. And I am sure, like those other lawyers. that she would recuse herself should she believe that she and her client was on a hiding to nothing.
We have to wait and see, don't we.
Is this fake news ?
Donald Trump wins first legal battle in Pennsylvania
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@ethang5
will find out whether my teaching comes from GodI found out His teaching comes from God.
How? Did you see and speak with god? No one has seen god according to scriptures John 1:18 but that too is contradicted by other verses, isn't it. here>>>Genesis 32:30 "I saw God face to face."
So did you hear voices in your head, is this how it was all revealed to you?
It therefore follows that the bible is true.
No. Just because you say " you found out", hasn't and doesn't prove a damn thing.
What makes you believe that you have found out anything? Where did you find it out, who or what revealed it to you ? Did this supposed revelation change your life?
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@ethang5
Everything is "open" to interpretation,It is and you do, often.. as you have in your last three posts with Ludofl3x. You have only been back seconds and right away your telling us what god really meant or changing what he said and rewriting scripture to make god come up smelling of roses. You are full of BS and anyone reading your crap above can see it for themselves.And you do this especially when it comes to prickly verses in the scriptures where Christians find it hard to find harmony between a self confessed jealous god of war and a "carpenters son" that preaches about meek and mild people turning the other cheek and giving everything to the so called "poor".And incidentally; they can never explain why it is that we should give to the poor particularly when Peter expressly tells us "The end of all things is near". 1 Peter 4:7 . What will be the point?Then we are told " do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." . Matthew 6:34So; don't worry, but the end of all things is near. But hurry: ! Give all of your worldly goods and hard earned take home pay to "the poor".Maybe this is why Jesus only bothered to cure nine or ten lepers when he could have just as easily eradicated leprosy from the face of the earth altogether ? Or why he didn't cure all blindness instead of one or two blind men?Every time you are beaten you simply run to yet another tired atheist trope.
So you have never contemplated those awkward stories above and contradictory verses above then. I should have known better than to expect you to take them on, you are no more bible savvy that the Reverend Tradesecrete, and he is a fully qualified Lawyer, Chaplin and Pastor!!!!! That has " studied and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church" . #91
I know it may be hard to believe that someone with such a religious education is as bible ignorant as you but here it is from the Pastors mouth:
I am a lawyer. There you goBut in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation. I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications. #20
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@HistoryBuff
As interesting as one of those links is - and it is; 9only one works) I have found for the las 5 years the CCN has simply been anti Trump and would have no trouble in denying Trump any type of success even if it was genuine and true no matter how small or pointless. if he had any type of win they would report it as a loss. I am an outsider looking in and have no dog in the fight but the bias of CNN (and others) has been breathtaking at times. this is not to say that I am dismissing your link a shite.
I will say , you got me there.... for now
What about this clip is evidence?
Is she one of those "frivolous lawyers" you mentioned or is she competent and capable with any integrity?
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@ethang5
? What, exactly, is your basis for believing that the Bible is True?Amoung others, this....Jhn 7:16 - Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.Jhn 7:17 - Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.I found out.
You say this like it was a great revelation to you that had somehow changed your life.
How does what you believe happened to you prove the bible to be true? Just agreeing within it in no way proves the bible to be true.
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I have asked you to stay off my thread and given perfectly good reasons for you to do so. I am not interested in the slightest in what you have to say.
I am asking you again for the third time.
Please stay off my thread for the reasons I have given above
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@ethang5
Everything is "open" to interpretation,
It is and you do, often.. as you have in your last three posts with Ludofl3x. You have only been back seconds and right away your telling us what god really meant or changing what he said and rewriting scripture to make god come up smelling of roses. You are full of BS and anyone reading your crap above can see it for themselves.
And you do this especially when it comes to prickly verses in the scriptures where Christians find it hard to find harmony between a self confessed jealous god of war and a "carpenters son" that preaches about meek and mild people turning the other cheek and giving everything to the so called "poor".
And incidentally; they can never explain why it is that we should give to the poor particularly when Peter expressly tells us "The end of all things is near". 1 Peter 4:7 . What will be the point?
Then we are told " do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself." . Matthew 6:34
So; don't worry, but the end of all things is near. But hurry: ! Give all of your worldly goods and hard earned take home pay to "the poor".
Maybe this is why Jesus only bothered to cure nine or ten lepers when he could have just as easily eradicated leprosy from the face of the earth altogether ? Or why he didn't cure all blindness instead of one or two blind men?
They can never explain either why a GOD would waste his very first and perfectly good miracle on turning water into alcohol?
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@3RU7AL
Any data presented with the aim to discredit the PERSON (while ignoring the substance of their specific CLAIM) is, quite technically, the very definition of an AD HOMINEM ATTACK.
A1+
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@ethang5
My answer was, neither the text, or Herod said that John had performed "mighty works" that were now "showing forth themselves in Jesus".
Then you simply cannot read or have missed what Herod has clearly implied.
And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him."Matthew 14:2
and he said to his attendants, "This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him."Matthew 14:2
Thank you for your pointless input.
Now you can go.
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@HistoryBuff
FFS!!!!!!!!You say categorically that they have no evidence. when I asked you simply said "none".#18 HistoryBuffIf they did have evidence their lawsuits wouldn't be getting thrown out over having no evidence. It is super straight forward. No evidence = lawsuits getting tossed out.
So which law suits alleging voter fraud are being thrown out " for having no evidence"? Where and when?
And it looks like this very credible woman Lawyer has something different to say.
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@Tradesecret
You simply know there is no getting away from such a profound statement don't you, Reverend
And you a qualified lawyer and Chaplin and Pastor , supposedly a man that deals in words for a living!!! You haven't even the common decency to explain what it is you meant by your own ridiculous and thoughtless statement .
"The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3
Are you saying the bible doesn't influence anyone at any time!? That "it can't cause" people to believe in for instance - life after death, so then cause them to behave in a certain way!? And are you saying that the bible "It can't cause " people to change their lives for the better?
You have rendered the bible null and void not to mention - pointless, with your profound statement Reverend and you are far too ignorant to even realise it! You are a disgrace to your own calling and your oath as a lawyer!
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@RoderickSpode
It's true Jesus never changes, but this does not mean nothing as expressed in the bible changes. There are seasons of change. The book of Ecclesiastes makes this clear.
Indeed. The author of The book of Ecclesiastes ( believed to be Solomon who comes across as suffering from deep depression) also makes clear the utter futility and meaninglessness of life as he saw it.
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@HistoryBuff
Yes you keep saying this but they OBVIOUSLY believe they have. You just can't even accept that they believe this and are just dismissing something that you clearly have no knowledge of. They are going to court with something aren't they!?what makes you think they believe they have evidence?
FFS!!!!!!!!
You say categorically that they have no evidence. when I asked you simply said "none".#18 HistoryBuff
Stephen wrote: Well it appears that Trumps lawyers are going to the high court, so what supporting evidence do you think they have?->@HistoryBuff wrote: None.
You haven't explained yet how you know that they have no evidence at all?
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@ethang5
Your poor reading comprehension has mislead you again.
The bible does not say John performed miracles.
Follow what I have said and not what you want me AND Herod to have said.
Herod had never met Jesus before but he knew John very well. The question is very easy and it have nothing to do with anyone's reading comprehension.
Go back and read the question AND ANSWER IT or simply leave the thread .
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@Mopac
Stephen is not a Christian, he exclusively uses the bible as a means to stir up strife.
Are you saying then that the bible can in fact cause people to do things?
He certainly does not use the bible as we orthodox do.
Use the bible? How do you mean, use the bible?
For us, it is easy to dismiss what he says with, "that is not what the church believes or teaches".
You tell us that the New Testament is the true story of the birth ,life and death of Jesus. And that is what you teach. I just don't believe it as it has come down to us. I don't believe a dead and rotten stink corpse was brought back to life. I don't believe a man was cured with words spoken from miles away? I don't believe a man walked on water? But you/the church, are happy for the none thinker to believe this rubbish and to remain ignorant and not self thinking. Those days are long gone my little monk friend.
What I believe I that these stories of so called miracles have another meaning. I believe that there is another story altogether going on just below the surface of this garbled mess called the New Testament. You are not forced to read to what I believe, no more than I am you.
I am open about my beliefs. I even have opinions. Stephen here as I said, only cares about stirring up strife.
But you haven't explained how I do that using only a so called faultless book full of words that according to the Reverend Tradesecret " can't cause anything" ,#3
Are you disagreeing with her/him?
Why such a preoccupation with abberant sexual behavior?
I don't know what you mean. I am straight as the come and happy in my own skin. Joining in on a discussion started by another member who believes the bible and god want him dead is not me having a preoccupation with sexual behavior. It is me having a "preoccupation" with the bible and what YOUR god says should be done to these people that he calls "abominations".
I do notice that you too have joined in that conversation. How many comments have you made on this one alone, Mopac, https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5125-i-am-gay-if-your-god-told-you-to-murder-me-would-you-murder-me?page=1
This is a big hang up for some people.
Commanding that someone should be executed would be a fkn big hang up for anyone and for any reason.
Especially the people who practice these things.
Are you saying that self confessed Homosexual Theweakeredge shouldn't take any notice that the bible and that god wants him dead and that there are Christians that believe this too AS YOU HAVE SHOWN!
Are you saying that Theweakeredge concerns for his safety are unfounded? And he his making a fuss about nothing? and the "bible can't cause anything"#3
Was he over reacting when he said - "I am Gay - though I am specifically pansexual - I still trend towards being attracted to men - and your god told you to murder me (like the doctrine of the bible does) would you murder me?" _ #1. because I have noticed that you on that thread have offered not one single word of Christian comfort or reassurance to him. And you wonder why he "has an hang up".
Very rarely do people want to be told something contrary to what they believe,
Ah, yes- I know that. You don't like being told that your beliefs are based on out and out lies do you.
especially if that makes them wrong.
And especially if it is shown that your belief is shown to be misguided and based of a book full of contradictions and ambiguous half told stories.
AND while I think about it. You haven't ever met a single character mentioned in the bible have you? Yet this book has somehow "caused you to" believe in god and all he has "breathed into it". I would call that magic or even miraculous wouldn't you? Especially for a book full of words that, according to a "qualified" Pastor Chaplin "cannot cause anything"!!!!!! In fact this book that " can't cause anything" appears to have had a profound impact on the whole of your life!!!!!
People would much rather hear things that give them validation or legitimize them.
The only single way that you and people like you can attempt to give the bible any "validation" is to lie about it.
But our approach to things of this nature is to be charitable, not to condemn people.
And this is you being a good charitable christian and not condemning is it?>>>>>
No room for drag queen storytime in those days. It was even a matter of survival.The fact that laws here are so lenient on this issue certainly is a charity, because it would be no wrong thing if the government passed laws punishing adulterers and sodomites.Well, considering how down the slope society has already slid concerning sexual morality, it might be a tad merciless at this point.
All very christian I must say. You not only contradict the bible, you also contradict your own statements.
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@Lemming
I don't dislike Tradesecret,
Neither do I.
But I do dislike the way Christians presents these scriptures as faultless when they are clearly not.
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@Lemming
As he says people can 'look, 'evaluate, 'add to ideas,
Yes, she talks quite a lot of BS for a "qualified " Pastor and Chaplin that by all accounts has " studiedand was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers fromthe Orthodox Church. #91
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4953-apostasy-from-true-christianity?page=4
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4953-apostasy-from-true-christianity?page=4
Except that this is the "unalterable word of god", And Tradesecrets knowledge of the bible given all her "qualifications" and revered titles has been shown to be somewhat lacking.to put it polity
The " academics, scholars, and priests and fathers " must have skipped this part of her religious education;
Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, of the Lord your God which I command you.
Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.
The Reverend Tradesecrete is for ever rewriting these scriptures and putting words into the mouths of its authors and characters.
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@Lemming
Personally I believe that the Bible is capable of offering great good to a person.
That may be true. The bible can "cause" some people to do good or behave good. I have said , words do influence in all kinds of magical ways. That is why the ancients called words strung together Spell-ing. see post #1 above.
The Egyptians didn't call their long almost poetic conversations with their gods, prayers, they called them spells. Their priest were called magicians. The Book of the Dead are all spells. A subject far too deep to even begin to explore here.
To say flat out that books do not "cause anything" is serious backward thinking. And particularly when were are talking about a book the instructs its adherents that the sentence for working on the sabbath is also death.
If a society is determined to respect and accept homosexuals, would not the people interpret the Bible in a fashion relative to their society?
But does it. We can see mopac for instance, like his god, hates & despises homosexuals. He refers to them in all kinds of derogatory terms. The bible is causing Mopac to hate as it does many Christians. Why? Because his god does, and his god calls homosexual practices an "abomination" worthy of the death penalty.
And I am sure that mopac has no qualms with this stance. It is only 21st century MAN MADE common law that is stopping him punishing homosexuals, not his contradictory bible.
His bible is clear : “We must obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29) . Mopac will tell you he will do what his church tells him to do. Its a good job his church defies its own god isn't it.
It was the law.No room for drag queen storytime in those days. It was even a matter of survival.The fact that laws here are so lenient on this issue certainly is a charity, because it would be no wrong thing if the government passed laws punishing adulterers and sodomites.Well, considering how down the slope society has already slid concerning sexual morality, it might be a tad merciless at this point.
And on he goes . On every thread that highlights god & homosexuality. Aren't we lucky Mopac tell us he is "not a violent person" ? Who knows what his bible may cause him to do and with his god approval too.
If Bible has 'influence on person considering genocide evil, can the Bible be attributed to have 'caused this.
In some cases it in not an impossibility. But the bible itself doesn't consider genocide evil. Mopac's God commits genocide at the drop of a hat. Christians will always attempt to justify their gods actions.
We should be thankful for the reformation and thankful we live in the 21century where we have laws , common laws, that are now set aside from religion.
To say books do not "cause anything" is absolute BS and for a statement like that to come from a person that deals in words for a living it is an absolute disgrace :
Iam a lawyer. There you go [..............................]Butin my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoralcare. And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with properaccreditation. I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defenceforces, a position I could not have without properqualifications. #20
And I am not surprised that she has given this thread a wide berth. It is a backward, thoughtless & irresponsible statement to make and defend. And she knows it!
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@Lemming
If a person was 'reasonable, not hateful or of murderous faith, the Bible would not be dangerous I think.If a person was 'reasonable, not hateful or of murderous faith, then patriotism to country would not be dangerous perhaps.
"IF". But we actually do have evidence that books do carry influence and do cause people to act. And the Quran is a perfect example where its adherents follow the commands of Allah and his so called prophet to the letter. There are strict instruction to kill the unbeliever until all the world and all religion is for Allah.
Quran8:39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.
To claim that "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3, is thoughtless and the Lawyer Tradesecrete knows it is. And I believe if he could take that comment down I am sure he would, now the obvious has been pointed out to him . I believe he made the comment without thinking or consideration in his haste to defend his god and the scriptures. His god by his own admission is a " jealous god of war", that has encouraged war and slaughter and genocide. . .
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I know. But any lawyer, going by your own yard stick then , wouldn't take a case to court UNLESS there was supporting evidence for a claim, you say.no. I said a prosecutor. A prosecutor's goal is the conviction of someone they believe is guilty.
And to get to the truth. A lawyer is a lawyer. A prosecutor is a lawyer for the people/City. A lawyer for a claimant (his client) would also have to have evidence that supports his clients claims. There isn't any difference. Stop trying to pretend there is.
SO according to you, just like the prosecutor would have to prove his case on behalf of the people, the lawyer in Trumps case would have to do the same. He would have to!
I think you know that you have dropped a fkn great clanger here and you are trying to make a distinction between the two and their LAWFUL requirements. Those lawyers for Trump would have to go by the same yard stuck as YOU have told us a prosecuting lawyer would when it comes to "evidence".
I asked you then what supporting evidence do you think Trumps lawyers have that support these notarized affidavits? You replied "none". Yet you have no evidence that this is true. It is something that you are simply spouting (or wishing).
It is all to establish IF there was fraud, If fraud is established then it will become criminal and the fraudsters will have to be caught.and since no one appears to have any actual evidence of fraud, starting 20 lawsuits without evidence is a pretty shitty thing to do.
Yes you keep saying this but they OBVIOUSLY believe they have. You just can't even accept that they believe this and are just dismissing something that you clearly have no knowledge of. They are going to court with something aren't they!? Now whether they ALSO have the supporting evidence for the notarized affidavits made under oath that only YOU so far have claimed they also need and have to have, is another matter.
Are Trumps lawyers claiming fraud? YES. Do they have any evidence ? YOU say NO because affidavits on their own don't mean diddly-squat. So I am asking you are these million dollar lawyers so incompetent to go to court without supporting evidence that back up the witness affidavits even if these affidavits are notarised in the full knowledge that they are going to lose and won't get past the first fence?they aren't incompetent. They know they are going to lose.
So if they are not incompetent and if they know they are going to lose; they are defrauding their client aren't they? They are representing him under false pretences. Isn't part of a lawyers oath to do the best for his client?
Pennsylvania
" I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support, obey and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth and that I will discharge the duties of my office with fidelity, as well to the court as to the client, that I will use no falsehood, nor delay the cause of any person for lucre or malice." _ is part of the oath. read it yourself>>>> https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.inbar.org/resource/resmgr/litigation/Oaths.pdf
So these Lawyers for Trump are then disavowing their oaths and their client President Donald Trump and the Republican party. A mighty web indeed.
An affidavit is a type of verified statement or showing, or in other words, it contains a verification, which means that it is made under oath or penalty of perjury, and this serves as evidence for its veracity ie conformity to facts; accuracy.an affidavit does serve as supporting evidence.
No. You didn't read what I wrote. The supporting evidence for THE AFFIDAFIT is the signed notary . I gave you an example and one that is acceptable in a court of law here in the UK.
But we could argue about that for ever as I am English and you, I assume, are American and we may find ourselves at different purposes.
But without physical evidence, they are basically worthless. They are just hearsay. If you swear you saw me commit a crime, but there is no evidence a crime was committed, then your affidavit means nothing.
Well it appears to me that this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is simply your own opinion. With no supporting evidence. But you did say that you didn't work for a law firm, didn't you.
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@Mopac
If laws were passed that dictated that sodomy or sexual immorality deserved punishment, I wouldn't see anything wrong with this. Hope thst clears things up.
But laws have been passed by god himself. He tells us why and tell us the punishment. Do we have to keep repeating these horrific biblical verses over & over to you?
Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
" surley" it says. So you are agreeing that homosexuals should be put to death.
Perverts should be grateful that the laws are so relaxed, because they certainly are not entitled to be treated so kindly.
Define "perverts". And tell me why they are not worthy of life?
If people who cheated on their spouses were prosecuted, I would say the cheaters had it coming.
I agree. But we are not talking man and wife, here are we. Stop trying to deflect.
Just to make it clear that I am not simply picking on those who wear leather assless chaps
Then what are you doing if you say that homosexual should be "put to death" ?
here has been a very intentional effort in philosophy for the last couple hundred years to replace Christianity. The result is that words don't mean the same thing anymore. If you can't change what was written, change the meaning of the words that were written!
That is among the most honest and truthful words I have ever seen on written this forum. And I agree with this entirely.
We are being told Islam is a "race" so they can introduce blasphemy laws and hate crimes against Islam Muslims. They are attempting to redefine the meaning of the word 'phobic' so to make it a discriminatory criminal offence to say anything about Muslims.
It is a shame you didn't comment on my thread about this very subject, Mopac. I am surprised that we have actually found some common ground
" PM Theresa May refuses to commit to adopting recommended Islamophobia definition".
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@BrotherDThomas
I see, Brother that the failed Monk Mopac has steered the argument away from the awkwardness and embarrassment that is raised by the opening post and onto his usual BS about the "ultimate reality".
It is, and always will be, his only unprovable argument. He hasn't even attempted to tell us if he even agrees with the vile biblical verse concerning the death penalty for Homosexuals and their sexual acts to be an "abomination" to god.
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But you have said above:"no prosecutor would ever go to trial on a witness' statement alone". So are you then suggesting that Lawyers for Trump are stupid and incompetent by going to court without supporting evidence to back up the affidavits knowing that their claims will be "tossed out"? Although you say no lawyer would do this.no, you misunderstood what I said. I said no prosecutor would go through with a case without evidence. Trump's lawyers are not prosecutors.
I know. But any lawyer, going by your own yard stick then , wouldn't take a case to court UNLESS there was supporting evidence for a claim, you say. And at the moment we are only talking civil law aren't we? It is all to establish IF there was fraud, If fraud is established then it will become criminal and the fraudsters will have to be caught.
Are Trumps lawyers claiming fraud? YES. Do they have any evidence ? YOU say NO because affidavits on their own don't mean diddly-squat. So I am asking you are these million dollar lawyers so incompetent to go to court without supporting evidence that back up the witness affidavits even if these affidavits are notarised in the full knowledge that they are going to lose and won't get past the first fence?
An affidavit is a type of verified statement or showing, or in other words, it contains a verification, which means that it is made under oath or penalty of perjury, and this serves as evidence for its veracity ie conformity to facts; accuracy.
Affidavit evidence
(1) Evidence must be given by affidavit instead of or in addition to a witness statement if this is required by the court, a provision contained in any other rule, a practice direction or any other enactment.
It appears that, in the UK at least, an affidavit is acceptable as evidence on its own with a notarised witness statement . ie I swear I seen this affidavit written and signed by Joe Biden on 14/11/2020
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@HistoryBuff
Well it appears that Trumps lawyers are going to the high court, so what supporting evidence do you think they have?None. that is why they have had case after case tossed out.
But you have said above:
"no prosecutor would ever go to trial on a witness' statement alone". So are you then suggesting that Lawyers for Trump are stupid and incompetent by going to court without supporting evidence to back up the affidavits knowing that their claims will be "tossed out"? Although you say no lawyer would do this.
But has a long way to go before he beats Joes' raising of the dead and getting them into the city polling stations. All very biblical sounding I know, but it has happened before you know.there's been no solid evidence that happened. I've seen some cases where trump's team said a dead person voted and the person was proven to be very much alive.
Yes I seen that one myself. But I can't remember if he was a republican or a democrat. I suppose it makes no difference does it.
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@HistoryBuff
But it is also important to note the distinction. If someone says "i saw that man shoot and kill the victim", they 100% confirm they saw the commission of a crime.They could be lying.absolutely. And that is why no prosecutor would ever go to trial on a witness' statement alone.
Well it appears that Trumps lawyers are going to the high court, so what supporting evidence do you think they have?
I agree. But what if they say under oath ¬` I seen a box 500 votes destroyed, ' that is another matter isn't it.It could be. It would depend on context. But it is impossible to destroy a box of 500 votes without there being some record of it.
Well we have recently celebrated Guy Fawkes nigh here UK. . And I got rid of reams of paper work collected over the years. Now I cannot prove that I had them in the first place.
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@zedvictor4
And what about Trump's hair.
It too is a miracle , Vic.
But as I mentioned above, as an outsider looking in, the way I see it is that Trump has performed some miracles over the last 4 years. But has a long way to go before he beats Joes' raising of the dead and getting them into the city polling stations. All very biblical sounding I know, but it has happened before you know.
" and the graves were opened; and many bodies were raised; and thousands coming out of their graves they went into the city to cast their vote". Matthew 27:52-54 NKJV
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