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@Singularity
OP is a homosexual. Nobody spends this much time thinking about Jesus, unless they want to suck his dick.
Nope. Wrong AGAIN!!!!
I am firmly on the heterosexual bus and if I was inclined to pull one off over a myth it would be over Jessica Rabbit
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@Dynasty
Krishna's mother had 7 children before him. Also, Isis had sex with the dead body of Osiris.
Indeed. There were so many to choose from. Had Christians chosen any other mystery school myth we may have had car stickers proclaiming
`Marduk Loves You`< Babylonian Or ` Tammuz Saves`<Sumarian
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@DeusVult
Was Israel occupied at the time?
Don't you know? Are you really suggesting that Jerusalem was not under Roman occupation during Jesus time? Or are you just playing dumb?
Could it just maybe be that since Rome was the authority that they made it illegal for the Jews to carry out capital punishment outside of Roman Law?
Now you are telling us that Israel was occupied by Romans.
See post #1 I have give examples of stoning or attempted stoning by these elders while the under ROMAN occupation.
Blasphemy isn't a violation of Roman Law.
I know it was't and this is the point of the whole of this thread. So why don't you go back and read carefully the OP it is numbered #1
Hence the reason that they came to seek Rome's permission to execute someone?
Again this the point of the whole thread. Why didn't the elders simply execute Jesus for blasphemy? See post #1
Why don't you just go read the OP, you seem to have lost complete track of what has been said, or you have ignored everything altogether.. IN FACT, take your time and read the whole thread. start here #1
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@DeusVult
Nothing.
How do you know? The mosaic law was clear. Death by stoning for adultery.
I have heard it postulated that they only apprehended the woman in order to bring her to Jesus (where was the man? he would have been equally guilty).
One can postulate for eternity but sentence would have been the same for him.
In other instances you see that the Pharisees know that a woman is a prostitute,
More postulation.? But an adulterous "prostitute" then. We don't know she was a prostitute, the scriptures do not say. It has been postulated that this so called "prostitute" was Mary Magdalene, one of Jesus' followers and the first person to visit the empty tomb. So was all of the adultery story invented so we could see Jesus display his wisdom using one of his many female followers to play the part of the adulterous prostitute? Were the questioners really Jesus' followers dressed as Pharisee priests?
but don't try to kill her.
That's correct, they don't , but the law said they should have, doesn't it
She was just a pawn whose intended use was to discredit Jesus.
Or a actress playing the part of an adulteress so Jesus can display his worldly wisdom?
Had she not been brought before Jesus she would have lived out her days in sin and likely gone to hell.
Not if she was a real adulteress, she wouldn't have. The mosaic law states clearly that she AND HE should be put to death.
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@CaptainSceptic
Fauxlaw, That is great to hear (read)!!! I am glad that you acknowledge that Christianity is not "the" religion, but one of many potentials, all equal.
Not so quick there, Captain. Tertullian the early Christian author was not on the same bus as fauxlaw is pretending to be on. No!
Tertullian called the myth and mystery of Mithras - the Devil's "diabolical mimicry " . Tertullian has it that the devil " whose business it is to pervert the truth" had the audacity to preempt the exact circumstances of the coming of Jesus and the divine sacraments over a thousand + years before the event :
" he baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Mount and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread and brings in the symbol of resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the Devil that copies those of the divine" <<<<<<<< this was the utter desperation that Christians went to explain away the striking similarities that the Christian cult has with the ancient Mithras/Zoroastian pagan cult of Persia.
So we see, that the church fathers created one of the most absurd explanations. They had actually declared that the Devil had plagiarised Christianity by anticipation in order to lead people astray! Knowing that "the true son of god" was to come to earth, the Devil had copied the whole story of the life of Jesus over a thousand years advance.
Bravo Mr Satan Devil Lucifer, what a clever little creation of god you are.
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@ FAUXLAW. Yet another comment from the hit and hide dirty forum coward mk II.
If you, Stephen, [...........] Why should I be singled out as the interloper?
Listen. You came to this thread. I certainly didn't drag you here kicking and screaming. But then you not only come to this thread and comment 4-5 times, you commented without leaving the opportunity for me to address you AND your comments directly. This is cowardly practice by someone who simply doesn't want to read or listen to other peoples opinions and certainly do not want to even consider, for a split second, that others just may have valid and real points. . Yet here you are addressing me DIRECT and BY NAME personally. If you have me on block then it shouldn't be allowed for you to carry on this cowardly weasel-like practice of commenting and then running away.
Because it's popular to do that, today?
Stop whining and playing the victim. Address the subject matter or leave the thread. I am not bothered about your personal beliefs or that you have a faith. I am though concerned with what it is that you have faith IN!. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE!!!!!
So away with your victim-hood and woe is me. I don't care that your feelings are hurt.
Christians have taken myths from many mystery schools and wrapped them around a very real human being who simply wanted to free his people -JEWS - from the Roman yoke and - according to many - paid with his life. That is the REAL biography of your Christ. Jesus was a JEW not a Christian. He taught at a JEWISH temple not a Christian church. He preached to JEWS not Christians He returned from the Egyptian mystery schools to save JEWS, not Christians. He was king of the JEWS not king of the Christians. Get over it princess.
From my understanding, Jesus king and high priest of the JEWS, would have been totally appalled that a whole new religious ideology had sprung up in his name.
Read this very slowly and learn something from your own scriptures, JUST FOR FKN ONCE!!!! you whining little tart. I have even given you a clue
Matthew 22:41-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”
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@ FAUXLAW. Yet another comment from the hit and hide dirty forum coward mk II.
And I just cannot remember which library the original manuscripts for Jesus the Nazarene Jew king "son of God" who walked on water, healed a blind man but not blindness, a cured a leper but not leprosy, are housed in. But I can tell you which library they certainly are not housed in: National Library of Israel!!!!!! Jesus was a Jew, who believed himself to be king of the Jews , and not King of the Christians.
Strange though, it is said that they paid millions for Issac Newton's papers yet not a single paper or text or manuscript about or written by your born of a virgin Jesus. I guess it is because he was just too much of your common, run - of - the - mill, dying and rising god of which there are plenty to choose from.
Did I say Jesus was the first of myths to be born to a virgin in a stable, etc?
Nope and I never said you did. Interesting that you at least acknowledge that your Nazarene agitating Jew was NOT the first mythological "virgin born son of a god"....... by thousands of years.
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@ FAUXLAW.
Yet another comment from the hit and hide dirty forum coward mk II.
Does it bother you
NOPE! Does it not concern you that your man-god Jesus is certainly not the first dying and rising deity. Or the first man-god to be born of a "virgin, in a stable, and was able to turn water into wine"? Allegedly
'virgin' Mary with child Jesus. https://www.google.com/search?q=mary+with+child&rlz=1C1DSGK_en-gbGB437GB453&oq=mary+with+child&aqs=chrome.0.0l8.7018j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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The Philosopher Celsus critisised Christians for trying to pass off the Jesus story as a new revelation when it was actually an inferior imitation of pagan myths. He asked:
" Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christians - and if so, how are they unique"? Or are ours to be accounted myths and theirs believed? What reasons do Christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs? In truth there is nothing at all about what the Christians believe, except that they believe it to exclusion of the more comprehensive truths about god" Indeed, and well said that man.
How could pagan myths which predate Christian beliefs about their god-man Jesus by hundreds if not thousands of years (in the case of Mesopotamian myths and legends) have so much in common with the life story ' one and only savior ' Jesus ?
The common thread that relates all the gods and heroes of many cultures and religions is the myth that these deities, for one reason or another , die and then after their corpse's have been left stinking and rotting in one kind of a tomb or grave for days on end, they have suddenly and for reasons explainable, have just, hey presto! sprung back to life.!!! like is was all magic trick. <<<<< there may be some truth to that yet.
It also appears that many of these - once dead for a few days and come alive again gods - have another thing in common, they are all, or many of them are born of virgins where some god/ or ghost or spirit as come unto them while they slept and then come into them thereby impregnating them with the new god or hero them.
Examples:
Gautama Buddha: born of the virgin Maya Around 600 BC
Dionysus: Greek god, born of a virgin in a stable and turned water into wine !!!
Quirrnus: born of a virgin and known as a Savior.
Attis: born of a virgin in Phrygia around 200 BC
Indra: born of a virgin in Tibet around 700 BC.
Krishna: Hindu god, born of a virgin devaki around 1200BC.
Adonis: Babylonian god born of a virgin ishtar.
Zoroaster: born of a virgin around 1500 BC.
And there is Mithra. Mithra is particularly problematic for Christians as I once explained here #12 and here's why:
Christianity/ Christians, who have adopted all kinds of myths and legends (and gods) ,from many cultures will deny anything that shines a light on how fraudulent their `religion` actually is. The whole foundation of their/christian ideology comes from Persia. Before the Christ there have been many dying and rising gods born of "virgins" but the one in particular that is awkward for Christians is the cult of Mithra; born of a virgin, in a stable on 25 December over 600 years before Christ!!!! Mithraism is an off-shoot of the more ancient Persian cult of Zoroaster which was introduced into the Roman Empire around 67 BC.
Zoroastrian beliefs and doctrines include immortality, a sacramental meal, a savior god, resurrection, last judgment, heaven hell and a few other things that I can't remember off the top of my head. Yet you can guarantee that Christians will have it that Mithraism/ Zoroastrianism are both pagan religions, while denying that their own religion has very firm foundations in both these `pagan` cultures.
So, over the centuries it can be clearly seen that many innocent young girls have been giving birth to children of gods and if the Romans had decided to adopt any other one of these dying and rising gods born of virgins, then we may have been reading things like ' Attis loves you, ' or `Quirrnus saves ' in the back windows of modern vehicles today in the 21st century.
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@Singularity
He acts confused that kikes were scheming. News flash ops that's what kikes do
Nearly right. But I am certainly not confused. But it appears the gospels certainly are. Some Jews did conspire with the Romans (with good reason) but this was all a complete Roman affair. The trial and execution were for crimes against Rome and the Jewish elders were more than happy to assist in the arrest of this agitator and alleged 'pretender' to the Jewish throne who was most certainly a threat to the fragile peace of those very troubling and unsettled times in Palestine.
Or haven't you read your bible AGAIN!!!!!!! LOOK>>>>>> If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation."John 11:48
There now. I have taught you something else haven't it.
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@Nemiroff
I am stating that the author was wrong.
And I would further add that this then should, for anyone who isn't a fawning sycophant , cast doubt on all of this extremely unreliable gospel.
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@Singularity
Indeed. And I have offered to take you up in a thread of your creation right here in the open forum. But you seem extremely reluctant to do so. I have never done a debate since I joined here and have said I have no intention of starting now.If you are afraid to debate your beliefs why.
I am not afraid to discuss and argue my claims or opinions. I am doing that right now, on this open and transparent forum, for all to witness. If you have a problem with that then simply start your own thread on your own beliefs. YOU KEEP MISSING THIS FOR SOME REASON>>
My genuine offer still stands and I will keep reminding you that it still stands. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. SO for the SEVENTH time!!!!!! >>>
Why don't you start a thread of your own supporting ALL of your claims that Jesus died on the cross and came back to life and was " witnessed by thousands" of people
are you on a debate site?
Are you incapable of reading.
You have the right to believe what you want and to sit here and not put your beliefs to the test,
I am putting YOURS and MY OWN beliefs to the test right here in open forum. Until now, you haven't offered a single piece of evidence that supports your claims where as I have. and you are forgetting what this thread about. It concerns two questions that require simple answers . It took you ten billion posts that had nothing to do with the actual subject before you actually got around to answering the question.
but if you are too much of a pussy ,
a "pussy" that knows AND understands these scriptures far,far better that you will ever live to know and understand. I have refused your offer of debate THREE TIMES NOW, . I am here if you want to discuss my biblical issues and I am still waiting for you to start your own thread on this open transparent forum to discuss your claims, that is what this forum is built for.
why are you here?
Why shouldn't I be here? why are you here on this forum?
I will tell you what, there is an option to pick the judges of the debate.
You must keep missing this offer>>>>
My genuine offer still stands and I will keep reminding you that it still stands. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. SO for the SIXTH time!!!!!! >>>
Why don't you start a thread of your own supporting ALL of your claims that Jesus died on the cross and came back to life and was " witnessed by thousands" of people
Start by supporting this wild claim of yours>> #31
->@Singularity wrote; " What we do know is that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected 3 days later and he was seen by thousands of people after his death, proving his supernatural ability and godhood".
You know the whole point of the forums is to see who disagrees with some of the stuff you say and then you debate them on the areas of disagree
Which can all be done on an open transparent forum, such as the one that you are posting on.
1 corinthians 15. It talks about 50 . 100 is just an estimate of mine. We have multiple siting gs with small crowds listed one sighting with 500.You don't dispute the 500 though. How many people need to witness an event for you? If I proved it was 1000, would that be enough for you to believe Jesus rose from the dead?
How many times ??? Start your own thread one the matter offering evidence that supports your claim and I will GLADLY join you. Or don't you know how to start a thread of your own?
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@Nemiroff
I am stating that the author was wrong.
I have to agree. It also begs the question of why they didn't just execute Jesus themselves, considering that he had committed blasphemy which again, under Mosaic law the punishment was death:
Mark 14:
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him
Leviticus 24:16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him.
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@Singularity
Jesus had disciples or not who follow him around and whether or not they are ever recorded as being armed
And I haven't disputed that. LEARN TO READ. I am suggesting that you have not read these scriptures as thoroughly has you pretend. It is quite obvious from the above incidents above at #34 that his disciples were not all present with Jesus all of the time or they were not prepared to use those arms unless instructed. I have told you, Jesus' mission was all about TIMING!!!! For anyone of his followers to cause any bloodshed before " his time had come" would have meant instant death for all of them. This is made perfectly clear throughout gospels. But numbskulls with amoeba brains would probably miss this very important point.
And I did point out to you this little biblical dilemma did I not? >>>>>>
AT Luke 22:36 Jesus gives instruction his "posse" >>>>> Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
But then Jesus also says at Matthew 26:52 “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword ". One just has to laugh at times, don't they? I know I do.
Interesting don't ya think? Buy a sword but don't use it or you'll die by it? These are the little contradictions that theists like to ignore and pretend they have never seen, even when pointed out to them, like I have had to do so, for you.
I noticed you still have not accepted my debate challenge. You must know you will lose.
Indeed. And I have offered to take you up in a thread of your creation right here in the open forum. But you seem extremely reluctant to do so. I have never done a debate since I joined here and have said I have no intention of starting now.
HOWEVER!
You must keep missing this offer>>>>
My genuine offer still stands and I will keep reminding you that it still stands. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. SO for the SIXTH time!!!!!! >>>
Why don't you start a thread of your own supporting ALL of your claims that Jesus died on the cross and came back to life and was " witnessed by thousands" of people
Start by supporting this wild claim of yours>> #31
->@Singularity wrote; " What we do know is that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected 3 days later and he was seen by thousands of people after his death, proving his supernatural ability and godhood".
Now, off you go. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. It shouldn't take you too long to gather your supporting evidence that supports your Sunday school story.
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@Singularity
It is clear. He walked with a posse of men. This is well documented. They would have gotten fucked up. ......... He was challenged repeatedly, but they didn't cross the line because they would have gotten fucked up.
I take it you have never read John 8, OR John 10, then. Where Jesus and ` had to do a runner` as they say these days?
"At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds". Nope, no mention of his sword wielding posse coming to the rescue.
"Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp". Where was the "sword wielding posse", here then?
"Again the Jews there picked up stones to kill Jesus. but he escaped across the river Jordan" . And a big fat bold underlined NOPE again, the absence of the now famous "sword wielding posse" is very noticeable.
nobody raised a hand to him because he traveled with an army
I see.
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@Nemiroff
it appears the new testament is wrong. Judaism does have a death penalty with clear cut rules and procedures.
Do you mean then, that the writer of Mathews of the gospel was lying and fabricating the whole story? Correct me if I am wrong.
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@Tradesecret
For me, The spirit of the law remains constant because the character of God remains constant
Would that be "hermetically" speaking?
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@zedvictor4
This sort of stuff is maybe loosely fact based information, though based on tales and supposition it is now rendered to mythology
That's your opinion. It not so according to the beliefs of devout Christians. So let them explain.
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Jesus Before Pilate
28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
30 They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee.
31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.
“It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:” they objected. WhAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!!??
Had these Jewish leaders forgotten their own laws laid down by the great Lawgiver himself; Moses? The very same Laws that Jesus stressed he hadn't come to change? And hadn't they attempted to "execute" Jesus for blasphemy TWICE already, but he had managed to escape? The first was in John 8, and again at John 10.
Did Jewish leaders suffer selective memory loss?
Were they not going to carry out the laws of Moses against an adulteress with "execution" by stoning? John 7.
What about Stephen? He was "executed" by being stoned to death for blasphemy, the worst crime one can commit "in all of jewelry".Acts 7
Why are the gospel writers silent on this so obvious lie, especially Mathew, who was forever reaching for his trusty Old Testament in his desperation to link (falsely) the Christ with Old Testament `prophesies `.
And there is this:
28 Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. WhAAAAT!
Then how did the Jewish leaders or anyone know what was spoken between Pilate and the Christ???? <<<<< This, before one gets around to asking how did the gospel writers come to write a dialogue that had taken place where only two people were present and anything up to a 100+ years after the alleged fact??
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Another hit and hide piece from @FAUXLAW
what aere my half-=assed beliefs [you must know wha tthey are to make the claim they're half-assed], and which huge chunk of the Bible am I ignring since I've read all of it in four different languages. Match that, or maybe you're missing the chunks. You're waiting for clarity as if it was a parade?
With all of your alleged "training in ancient biblical languages" you have still managed to get your spirits confused.
1 Corinthians 6:10 lNor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
SEVEN (7) POSTS ON MY THREAD And you still haven't answered the question in the op.
What Would Have Happened To This Woman If Jesus Hadn't Have Stepped In?
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@CaptainSceptic
I sit and wait for clarity.
Unless you have the lungs of a Polynesian pearl diver, do not hold your breath.
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@RoderickSpode
I'll demand the same proof with Sumerian/Mesopotamian texts.
Then get reading. Royal Library of Ashurbanipal.
They pretty much always seem to originate from an author(s) claiming direct quoting from various sources.
Christians believe the gospel accounts are eyewitness accounts but never can explain and prove their origin , this is not to mention that they cannot even agree on when they were composed. Goose Gander
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@Singularity
He just gave one example. Space is limited, there are a lot of stories from ancient sumeria dated centuries before the bible that have similarities to the bible stories that you can't just dismiss.
He and all Christians, can, will and do. Christianity/ Christians, who have adopted all kinds of myths and legends (and gods) ,from many cultures will deny anything that shines a light on how fraudulent their `religion` actually is. The whole foundation of their/christian ideology comes from Persia. Before the Christ there have been many dying and rising gods born of "virgins" but the one in particular that is awkward for Christians is the cult of Mithra; born of a virgin, in a stable on 25 December over 600 years before Christ!!!! Mithraism is an off-shoot of the more ancient Persian cult of Zoroaster which was introduced into the Roman Empire around 67 BC.
Zoroastrian beliefs and doctrines include immortality, a sacramental meal, a savior god, resurrection, last judgment, heaven hell and a few other things that I can't remember off the top of my head. Yet you can guarantee that Christians will have it that Mithraism/ Zoroastrianism are both pagan religions, while denying that their own religion has very firm foundations in both these `pagan` cultures.
I will create a new thread on the subject of the many dying and rising gods. when I have the time.
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@Singularity
And you still haven't said if or not that this woman would have been stoned if it wasn't for Jesus? YES or NO?Obviously she would have been stoned to death had Jesus not intervened
And that is all I needed to know. I didn't need your made up bits and pieces concerning men with swords and who coulda', shoulda' ,woulda' "been fucked up".
You are correct. But tell me, dif Jesus' "gang of 12 men" tell the crowd "not to do anything" or not to interfere. Is there a biblical verse perhaps that you can highlight for us, that shows these gang of twelve threatening or just telling and advising anyone " not to do something,"?They really wouldn't need to. JESUS drew a line in the sand and asked somebody to cross it. He had a gang of 12 men with him.
I see; and you have a biblical verse that confirms all of this do you? You see, the only thing mentioned is "writing" and it has never ever been disclosed what it was Jesus actually wrote.
John 8: 7 but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust. And which verse states that Jesus "asked somebody to cross it"?
Although, I believe there may be an excellent clue that explains what was written in the dust by Jesus, in Jeremiah.
For me I make no assumptions
Oh stop it? Is all you have done since joining this thread is "ASSUME " everything about EVERYTHING. Your tiny mind has tried to fill in gaps with "assumptions" and you are now trying to present those assumptions, YOUR OWN assumptions, as fact.
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This is why you are scared of a formal debate with me
Nope. My genuine offer still stands and I will keep reminding you that it still stands. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. for the forth time>>>
Why don't you start a thread of your own supporting ALL of your claims that Jesus died on the cross and came back to life and was " witnessed by thousands" of people
Start by supporting this wild claim of yours>> #31
->@Singularity wrote; " What we do know is that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected 3 days later and he was seen by thousands of people after his death, proving his supernatural ability and godhood".
Now, off you go. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. It shouldn't take you too long to gather your supporting evidence that supports your Sunday school story.
PS. You still haven't brought yourself to comment on my last and most very recent thread concerning the crucifixion and a supposed dead man. Why is that? Here you are in case you missed that too. I await your comments but please make them relevant to the topic. >>>>
Islam, Christianity and the Crucifixion.
Author:Stephen, 05.04.20 06:33PM
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@FAUXLAW
And here he is again , the forum coward mark II, . chasing me around the forum .
Take your Moses and Sargon stories and accept that both likely occurred and neither invalidated the other.
Opinion. And NO!!! I don't accept that both, or all three come to that, actually occurred as individual and completely separate events. And they are not coincidental either.
The Moses story from beginning to end is riddled with faults and blinding mistakes. For instance, moses is not even a name it is a title. There is the fact that the moses story has it the Pharaoh's daughter adopted moses and raised him as a prince, yet not a single person asked where this "prince " came from. Don't make me laugh.
This babies, bitumen and bulrushes bullshit story has definitely been lifted by the Israelite scribes from the Mesopotamian legends as have other Genesis and Exodus tales. And it is there, as plain as day for anyone who cares to see for themselves. It is not a hard subject to research especially today when information is at one's fingertips. Unlike in my time when hard study and hours in a library were the order of the day.
Sargon of Akad has it that :
The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water.
Akki, the drawer of water, lifted me out as he dipped his pot.
And over a THOUSAND YEARS LATER!!!!! Pharaoh's daughter says :
Exodus 2:10 When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh's daughter and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, "I drew him out of the water."
And you are trying to tell us/me that these stories - over a THOUSAND YEARS APART - are not the same and have nothing in common. Get a grip lad.
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@Singularity
Your rebuttal is "you don't understand this"
No. My rebuttal is that you cannot prove it. " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. "
How about this. Go to the debate portion of this site and challenge me in a debate.
And I have suggested that you start a thread all of your own and I will gladly join you. But you keep refusing to do that or didn't you see my offer ?
just in case you didn't here is is again. Notice bold underlined>>>
Why don't you start a thread of your own supporting ALL of your claims that Jesus died on the cross and came back to life and was " witnessed by thousands" of people
Start by supporting this wild claim of yours>> #31
->@Singularity wrote; " What we do know is that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected 3 days later and he was seen by thousands of people after his death, proving his supernatural ability and godhood".
Now, off you go. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. It shouldn't take you too long to gather your supporting evidence that supports your Sunday school story.
PS. You still haven't brought yourself to comment on my last and most very recent thread concerning the crucifixion and a supposed dead man. Why is that? Here you are in case you missed that too. I await your comments but please make them relevant to the topic. >>>>
Islam, Christianity and the Crucifixion.
Author:Stephen, 05.04.20 06:33PM
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@ FAUXLAW
I'm afraid of nothing,
Of course you are. And you still have avoided the question but have commented TWICE!!!!!!!
And yet here you are again, leaving comments and then attempting to close down the possibility of a direct response. You just can't keep away. I don't give a shite about your block.
You simply do not like anyone who poses awkward embarrassing questions and always has a logical back hand to your piss poor answers and replies. I will continue to highlight what I believe to be biblical anomalies, contradictions and out right lies that are riddled throughout the scriptures . I am happy that you are not happy.
I'll lift my block.
You are delusional . I don't care about your block, I welcome it. It simply shows you for what you are, so don't flatter yourself. You haven't an argument or a defense to what I have to say and propose concerning these ambiguous, anomalous biblical half stories. I don't drag you kicking and screaming to my threads, you have come here all on your own free will ....... and then run away, hahahhahahhahhah.
And you still have avoided the question but have commented TWICE!!!!!!!
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It appears then that it cannot be disputed that the crucifixion story was an invention by the early Christians and based around a story that comes to us from historian Pharisee Josephus.
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It is common knowledge now that parts of the earlier Old Testament are stories of even older stories that come from Mesopotamia, today Iraq. The Flood story and the Creation story are all later versions of much older epics written down by the Sumerians. which brings me to the question of the story of Moses.
Part, if not all of the Moses story is also from a much older Mesopotamian myth concerning King Sargon of Akad. Akad was the name of a Mesopotamian city and its surrounding area.
In Exodus 2-3 we read : "And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink".
And, over a thousand years before the Moses story we have this coming from the Mesopotamian epics;
My changeling mother conceived me, in secret she bore me.
She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen [tar and pitch] she sealed my lid.
She cast me into the river which rose not over me (1,000 plus years prior Biblical Moses),
The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water.
Akki, the drawer of water, lifted me out as he dipped his pot.
Akki, the drawer of water, [took me] as his son and reared me.
She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen [tar and pitch] she sealed my lid.
She cast me into the river which rose not over me (1,000 plus years prior Biblical Moses),
The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water.
Akki, the drawer of water, lifted me out as he dipped his pot.
Akki, the drawer of water, [took me] as his son and reared me.
Does this make the Moses story a complete fabrication? Did Moses even exist? Was he just an invention of the Israelites? Or simply a story taken and adopted ( for reason at tis time , unknown? ) by the Israelites.
This isn't the only story from the Mesopotamian region that tells of babies in reed baskets either . It concerns a race know to the Sumerians as Anunnaki ( Anakim in the Old Testament)
“among the bulrushes, in reed baskets have I them found.
Ninki to the foundlings a likening took, as her own children she raised them.
Adapa she called the foundling boy, the girl she called Titi”.
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@Singularity
500 of the witnesses are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.
So? I don't believe that anyone seen a man once said to have been dead for three days, alive again. You cannot prove anything at all. You don'y understand the meanings of these verses or these scriptures at all. You are not even novice.
It makes no sense for them to keep up the ruse if it is based on obvious bullshit
Like I have sad. You don't understand the first thing about these scriptures, or the language they used among the different sects that existed in Palestine at the time of the Christ.
I think you missed all of this>>
I have covered this a few times now. If you feel like resurrecting one of my old threads be my guest. here ya go:I knew you were too much of a pussy.
Why don't you start a thread of your own supporting ALL of your claims that Jesus died on the cross and came back to life and was " witnessed by thousands" of people
Start by supporting this wild claim of yours>> #31
->@Singularity wrote; " What we do know is that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected 3 days later and he was seen by thousands of people after his death, proving his supernatural ability and godhood".
Now, off you go. Start your own thread, I will join you as soon as you have done so. It shouldn't take you too long to gather your supporting evidence that supports your Sunday school story.
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@ FAUXLAW
As I said, Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses [ guff, guff, guff guff guff, guff guff, guff, guff, guff, guff, guff guff, guff, guff, guff, guff, guff}
Another coward who leaves comments without a right to reply. Don't leave comments for me, if you cannot be gracious enough to afford me the right to reply. What are you afraid of?
Would this woman have been stoned if it wasn't for Jesus? YES or NO?
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Are you brain dead? Luke 22:49-51 shows that his disciples 12 and their tag alongs carried swords.
That is right. I said at Luke 22:36-38. Jesus actually tells them to go buy swords. ;
Go up and read it again. This is what I wrote>>> "I agree, many if not all of his disciples carried weapons, this is because they were ALL zealots.. In fact he told them to go out and buy them didn't he. Luke 22:36-38 " .. You really need to polish up on "your reading comprehension skills".
But then Jesus also says Matthew 26:52 “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword". One just has to laugh at times, don't they? I know I do.
He is still walking around with atleast 12 rough mother fuckers but even if they were soft it is scary to face 12 dudes.
And I haven't disagreed with that. " You really need to polish up on "your reading comprehension skills".
So probably half the people watching the stoning in addition to his 12 disciples and their hang arounds.
There was no stoning. . See >>> #1 " You really need to polish up on "your reading comprehension skills".
If you walked outside and saw a gang of 12 men telling you not to do something, unless you have a gun on you, you are probably going to bow to their wishes at the moment.
You are correct. But tell me, did Jesus' "gang of 12 men" tell the crowd "not to do anything" or not to interfere. Is there a biblical verse perhaps that you can highlight for us, that shows these gang of twelve threatening or just telling and advising anyone " not to do something,"?
This is without even acknowledging the weapons, popular support in random passer bys and near by crowds and even counting the hang arounds.
My lord, you do not know or understand these scriptures at all do you? Listen, No one among the general populace outside of authorities in Jerusalem even knew who Jesus was. Jesus was a Galilean, his following was from Galilee, his disciples were Galilean. Galilee was the heartland of the zealots. Learn your scripture BOY!!!
And you still haven't said if or not that this woman would have been stoned if it wasn't for Jesus? YES or NO?
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@Singularity
It is clear. He walked with a posse of men. This is well documented.
Nope. As I have already said. There is no evidence that Jesus was accompanied by a sword wielding "posse" while teaching at the holy Temple. Go read what is ACTUALLY written and not what you want to be written. >>> #1
I agree, many if not all of his disciples carried weapons, this is because they were ALL zealots.. In fact he told them to go out and buy them didn't he. Luke 22:36-38. I would also agree that he was building a fkn great army too. But none of this goes anywhere to actually prove your point. AT ALL. If you know anything concerning these unreliable, ambiguous half stories in the scriptures, you will know that Jesus (failed) mission was timed. He was forever saying "now is not the time" or "my time" and "my time has not yet come". I think you should take on your own advice where you say " I would work on your reading comprehension skills".
They would have gotten fucked up. It doesn't mean he couldn't be challenged.
More wild silly claims without supporting evidence.
He was challenged repeatedly, but they didn't cross the line because they would have gotten fucked up.
Jesus was challenged a few times before his arrest I agree. But there is absolutely no indication that anyone would have "got fucked up" before his arrest. If there was , then simply let us see your evidence.
Just like sometimes people back talk the police even though they know they are outmanned, but they still typically won't cross certain lines because they would get fucked up.
hahhahahahhahha. grow up !
Jesus started turning over the tables of vendors at the temple and despite him destroying people's livelihoods, nobody raised a hand to him because he traveled with an army.
Yes this was Jesus himself involved in a direct challenge to unarmed traders and temple priests, who - according to Jesus - had turned the house of his father into a den of thieves. Matthew 21:1-13 But you are talking about a totally different occasion. I personally believe on this occasion that it was more than a little hissy fit thrown by Jesus. And so does historian Josephus. get reading and " work on your reading comprehension skills"
Yes the story doesn't have a lot of detail.
That's right. It doesn't, does it!? But this doesn't give you literary licence to invent shite to support your unfounded claims.
We can't be sure what color clothes people are wearing,
Oh that is a shame isn't it. It may have gone some way to proving everything you have to say on this matter of an adulterous woman. But that is not all you can be sure about t is it? AND I haven't asked what colour cloths the adulterous was wearing. I am not asking what colour cloths Jesus was wearing and I don't care what colour clothes the Pharisee were wearing.
Jesus traveled with a posse who would fuck them up
So you keep saying.
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@Singularity
I mean we literally have thousands of witnesses to Jesus resurrection,
No you do not , stop being silly.
I have covered this a few times now. If you feel like resurrecting one of my old threads be my guest. here ya go:I knew you were too much of a pussy.
Nope. I have done the crucifixion a quite few times now - as I have shown you above - and I forgot to add my most recent which was just four short days ago where you appear to have given it a wide birth. In fact it appears that the whole christian community here gave it a wide birth, with only one single irrelevant reply.
Why don't you star a thread of your own supporting ALL of your claims that Jesus died on the cross and came back to life and was " witnessed by thousands" of people
Start by supporting this wild claim of yours>> #31
->@Singularity wrote; " What we do know is that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected 3 days later and he was seen by thousands of people after his death, proving his supernatural ability and godhood".
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@Singularity
"It has served us well, this myth of Christ." - Pope Leo XDid you hear the Pope speak that or was it from something written by men?
Oh come on. If you can have it that a three day old stinking rotten corpse can come to life again, I can accept that this Pope may have said something, and then someone wrote it down. Do you see the comparison there Singularity? A dead man coming to life and something allegedly said and wrote down. You couldn't get a rolling paper between the obvious difference could you, eh.
If you want to debate me on Jesus's resurrection I'd be happy to, but you would lose. You don't really have well thought out opinions on things
Behave yourself.
I have covered this a few times now. If you feel like resurrecting one of my old threads be my guest. here ya go:
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@Singularity
That will be your fellow Christians who have trouble with it.I'M not a christian LOL
Good for you. But I meant "your" as in "that's your fellow Christian for you". As already said, take your own advice and " " work on your reading comprehension skills. "
The bible was written by men. I have no problem accepting it could be wrong or corrupted or even mostly bullshit.
JESUS!!!! you are sharp.
What we do know is that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected 3 days later
Not so sharp after all. How disappointing.
and he was seen by thousands of people after his death,
"The bible was written by men"
proving his supernatural ability and godhood.
Proving nothing at all only that ""The bible was written by men" . Just because someone wrote something doesn't make it at all true...... in any written ancient language.
"It has served us well, this myth of Christ." - Pope Leo X
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@Singularity
They listened to him because he did not travel alone. He had a rather large posse and his posse was armed.
No mention of a posse being present or anyone threatening anyone either. All went swimmingly unless you count tails between legs as violence? Quite the opposite. It seems the Pharisee were confident enough to challenge him "to trap him" in the open , posse or not. There is no mention of what may, did or could have happened had they manage to trap him.
So unless you want to count tails between legs, there isn't a single hint of anything that would have caused any great rebellion or dissent or uprising
When he was arrested the Roman's...........[ yawn yawn yawn yawn bore bore yawn]
I don't care. That is another matter entirely. THIS thread is about the the rescue of a woman caught breaking strict Mosaic , thousands of years old law, where the punishment was death. And which the Pharisee were sticklers for. I want to know why they didn't stone this woman anyway, regardless of what Jesus did or didn't say or wrote in the dust.
And seeing that you like to answer for others; would they have killed her had Jesus not intervened. Yes or now.
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@Singularity
NOPE! take some of your own advice, " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. " This is what I wrote exactly:So; simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning. #22 last line.Yes I reworded what you wrote.
Doctored!
I accurately paraphrased that passage.
missing out the important part of "IF AT ALL"
[A] -->@Singularity wrote; You did ask at the end why it would be translated differently.
NOPE!! This is what I wrote. : >>>>>> So; simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning. #22 last line.
What you did was rewrite and doctor the question , see [A] above. I didn't even suggest that it was "translated differently" , YOU did that. My question was simple and it was clear. Like I have said, take some of your own pompous advice and " work on your reading comprehension skills. "
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@Singularity
The translation of sheol you provided is wrong. It is a grave .
So one would have to be dead then. AND It wasn't MY definition. I got the definition from >>>https://www.google.com/search?q=sheol&rlz=1C1DSGK_en-gbGB437GB453&oq=sh&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j35i39l2j0l2j69i60l2j69i61.12176j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 BUT IT STILL REQUIRES ONE TO BE DEAD doesn't it! Inother words all of those words you spouted ALL mean the same thing. SEE #22
And for one to be in the "supernatural underworld" known as Hades, would they be dead by any chance?Don't be an idiot. Having you body decay in a grave such as the word Sheol/grave implies is far different than having an immortal soul that resides in hades/hell.
More insults, what's that matter with you. These words ALL mean grave. I am not disputing that, but you seem to be here. Singularity #21
Sheol is not where spirits go. It is where bodies go. The ancient hebrews had no concept of hell.
I didn't say it was , " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. "
"All things" in those instances seem derived from a few different hebrew words but the context implies the same meaning.
And thank you for confirming that "in those [BIBLICAL} instances" they mean exactly the same in Hebrew.
Not sure why that is difficult to grasp
I have never had any problem grasping that at all, ever . That will be your fellow Christians who have trouble with it. They just can't seem to grasp that when the bible or god says "all things", that it, and he, means ALL THINGS!!
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@Singularity
You did ask at the end why it would be translated differently.
NOPE! take some of your own advice, " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. " This is what I wrote exactly:
So; simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning. #22 last line.
But you have answered that question and made it absolutely clear that there is absolutely no difference between the Hebrew meaning of "all things" and the English meaning in the context that they are written..
I think this just may be an IQ thing and why you have trouble understanding.
Don't be so fuckin' rude and ignorant. I have asked genuine question. I didn't say ` please insult me if YOU ARE STRUGGLING TO UNDERSTAND my question' !
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@Singularity
So all those words I have highlighted in your quote above all mean the same thing. They don't mean anything different. Yet you are trying to tell me they are all different when in truth these words all have the same meaning. buried and in the grave.No, you misread. I would work on your reading comprehension skills. Sheol means under ground, like a grave.
There is no reason to be rude. Are you saying that to be underground in Sheol is only LIKE being buried in a grave? Or is it simply that you are trying to fudge the question. Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which spirits of the dead go.
Hades is a supernatural underworld where living entities exist such as the devil and fallen Angel's.
And for one to be in the "supernatural underworld" known as Hades, would they be dead by any chance?
So when the bible says god created "all things" it means exactly the same in ancient Hebrew as it does in the English bible?
How does ancient Hebrew define the words "departed spirit"?
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@Singularity
Let me just give some examples. Sometimes the word hell is seen in the bible. When translated from the New Testament it is often translated from the word meaning Hades in Greek. This is a literal underworld of the dead. When you see the word in the old testament, it is sometimes translated from the Hebrew word Sheol, which literally means place underneath the dirt. It would probably be more accurate to translate it to grave.
So all those words I have highlighted in your quote above all mean the same thing. They don't mean anything different. Or are trying to tell me they are all different when in truth these words all have the same meaning : buried and in the grave.
Tell me the exact location of the words, so I can more easily pinpoint it
Did god create "all things" or not?
The Christian bible says:
“You alone are the Lord.
You have made the heavens,
The heaven of heavens with all their host,
The earth and all that is on it,
The seas and all that is in them.
You give life to all of them
And the heavenly host bows down before You.
“For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
So; simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning.
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@Dr.Franklin
she would have been stoned to death
Under the laws of the Old Testament? The Levitical Mosaic law?
So why wasn't she stoned to death?
Are you telling me that these Pharisee Priests ,who had been Zealous for the Law of Moses for thousands of years all of a sudden simply had a prang of conscience? This woman ( and the man) had still broken the holy Levitical Law, had she not? It is said this was a trap, but this only explains why they pretended they were interested in his opinion. This doesn't explain why had they even listened to Jesus on this matter never mind acted on what he said?
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A Woman Caught in AdulteryJohn 8: 1-11
Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, 2 but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. 3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.
4 “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her [to death]. What do you say?”
6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.
9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”
11 “No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
The Pharisee were correct of course :Leviticus 20:10
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
What Would Have Happened To This Woman If Jesus Hadn't Have Stepped In?
Did Jesus save this woman's life?
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@Singularity
The bible was not written in english and the english words used in place of the greek and hebrew words in the bible are often rough approximations.
So then, what do you propose the words "all" and "things" and "everything" mean , in ancient Hebrew?
And how many times have you heard a theist say the words " I only need the bible"? Would this be the same bible that doesn't actually state what it actually means then?
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@ MELCHARAZ
This is more a thought experiment than an actual discussion. People attribute omnipotence to God and say things like. "He cant make a 4 sided triangle." Or. " he cant make a rock he cant lift."But really, isnt this silly? All he would have to do is change meaning of tri angle. And make himself weaker. We humans can do this. So why cant God?
Yes! we know!!!!
Indeed, the apologist for the bible are forever changing words and their meanings to the biblical scriptures to fit their arguments and agenda. I was told here once that when the bible says "touch" it actually means "light". I have also been told that when the bible or god says "kill" , it doesn't mean kill". But one of my favorites of the apologists is that when the bible and god state that he/god created "everything" and "all things" it doesn't actually mean that god created " everything" and "all things". Which blows a whole clean through the creation story right there, doesn't it?
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Though, type the above ( include mixed race coupe if you like)
That's my point. You don't have to type in "mixed race" you will get the same fkn result simply by typing "White Couple".
Black Couple
Asian Couple
White couple
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That's nothing my friend. Type in Muslim Couple and click on images.
Type in black Couple and click on images.
Type in Asian Couple and click on images.
Type in Indian Couple and click on images.
AND THEN type in white couple and see what you get!!!!
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@RoderickSpode
Again, you are contradicting what the scripture actually says. There was no mention of harm and no mention of "baldy" being harmed by these CHILDREN. there is ONLY name calling as CHILDREN DO!. And young men, or children, it is all besides the point , where was the mercy shown by "the father"..Give me one good reason why this verse (amongst other verses about killing prophets) shouldn't be considered in light of the text in question?
This is exactly what I mean by YOU making things up and introducing things into these stories/scriptures that are not even there!!!!! You are an hopeless fraud.
Did "baldy"aka Elisha die? Did these "children" kill this prophet? No, he didn't and these "CHILDREN" didn't kill him either. He may have had his feeling hurt by "CHILDREN", but it didn't stop him going on his merry way even after seeing these children torn to pieces , no he didn't bat an eyelid. And "the father" showed no mercy to these little children either for doing what children do.
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