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@badger
I'm pretty sure my reads have been entirely my own this game. I'm also pretty damn confident in my That2User townread especially this DP. Wanting to sheep dead townies is always a huge towntell. It's pawning off responsibility on absolutely confirmed town basically. Not that it's pro-town or good play or anything obviously, but definitely town mentality.
I'm not saying you didn't have original reads. I'm saying that you give very little reason behind them, for the most part. Of course, there are exceptions, and I believe you're getting better about this as the game progresses.
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VTL That2User for claim.
They have already claimed, so this makes no sense lol. Voting them because I think they’re the most probable scum player, rather.
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@Danielle
@Greyparrot
@whiteflame
@Speedrace
@PREZ-HILTON
Please read above.
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We need to head a new direction, keeping in mind that scum are likely hiding in NFC West and AFC South.
Let's do some POE.
Eliminated:
Oromagi - Town Vanila (Note: AFC South)
Pie - Town Vanilla
In the Hunt:
1. Whiteflame - lean town. he's super hard to read. What's worth something is the fact he resisted the Oro train, and in the end never hopped on. (Note: NFC West)
2. Earth - null/lean scum. next to nothing to read off him. He comes in with an occasional question/comment but nothing of substance. Standard play for both town and scum for him as far as I can tell.
3. Badger - null. I'm not sure what to think with badger. He acts relatively townie, but his reads are almost all gut-based, and any reasoning he gives for his reads tends to piggyback off of someone else's logic. He never presents his own. This allows him to jump on lynch trains pretty easily if he were scum.
4. Greyparrot - I am actually reconsidering my original scum read on GP. Not to disclose any unnecessary information, but I've realized that his role makes a lot of sense balance-wise.
5. That2 - null/lean scum. Seems relatively townie behaviorally, but I do not have any experience with them as scum to my recollection. Their sudden vanilla claim is a point of interest. The scum team may have prompted the claim in order to stick to plan, as with 2 confirmed vanillas already, any additional vanilla claims down the road will immediately be suspect due to balancing issues. Is anyone else vanilla? (Note: AFC South)
6. SirAnon - null/lean scum. about as he has always been. He could be scum or town easily. his proactivity in "preventing a scum hammer" comes off as showy. "Hey look at me I'm a helpful townie!" (Note: NFC West)
7. Wylted (subbing in for Barney) - To be honest I'm not seeing a ton of reason for a Wylted lynch. Barney was defensive last DP but, as I've been saying, his reaction was fairly understandable and the original rationale behind his lynch was weak.
Danielle is probably right here:
They killed Pie because either (1) they are trying to frame Barney based on their OMGUS exchange; (2a) they assumed Pie had a power role and/or would be a good player to take out based on being among the most aggressive and active players DP1;
It's most likely a combination of those two factors.
Overall lean-town for now. He is providing good insights and seems genuinely interested in scumhunting. Plus Barney was on GP last DP, and as we've established, he didn't have any incentive to be doing that as scum.
8. MisterChris - town (Note: NFC West)
9. Speedrace - lean-town. Inactive mostly but that's to be expected. Hard to read as always. Like with Barney, the fact that he was on GP to the end sticks out to me as town stubbornness. You would think he would hop on a mislynch train as scum if he could.
10. Danielle - lean town. She's pretty logical with her reads, and has taken relatively pro-town stances so far. (Note: AFC South)
Conclusion:
SirAnon, That2, and Earth are by far our strongest targets this DP. All except Earth are part of the 3 player divisions (AFC South and NFC West) which likely contain a scum in each. Oro's loss means the scum in AFC South is either Danielle or That2. That2 is the strongest scum candidate of the two. Further, the presence of any additional vanillas would cause me to seriously question That2's claim, especially since the balance is already in question with just 2 confirmed and 1 claimed.
With NFC West, SirAnon is the best scum candidate.
Earth may be the final scum, outside of either division, but I can't say anything for certain.
For now, I'd like to pressure That2.
VTL That2User for claim.
SirAnon, That2, and Earth are by far our strongest targets this DP. All except Earth are part of the 3 player divisions (AFC South and NFC West) which likely contain a scum in each. Oro's loss means the scum in AFC South is either Danielle or That2. That2 is the strongest scum candidate of the two. Further, the presence of any additional vanillas would cause me to seriously question That2's claim, especially since the balance is already in question with just 2 confirmed and 1 claimed.
With NFC West, SirAnon is the best scum candidate.
Earth may be the final scum, outside of either division, but I can't say anything for certain.
For now, I'd like to pressure That2.
VTL That2User for claim.
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I guess this is moot now. I'm willing to interrogate Barney further tmrw as well. Just thought oro would be the better option for today.
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@ILikePie5
If he's trying to catch up on 10+ pages of material, I'm not sure how thoroughly involved you can expect him to be.
To be clear, I'm not saying his absence doesn't hurt town, but I am saying your rationale isn't strong enough to override our other options here.
To be clear, I'm not saying his absence doesn't hurt town, but I am saying your rationale isn't strong enough to override our other options here.
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@ILikePie5
He got defensive because you accused him of something he didn't do. That's a much weaker rationale for his lynch than with Oro.
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@SirAnonymous
You're right. It was sandwiched in there without me noticing...
I retract 99% of my last post then. I will maintain though, that his delay to post at first adds up if he was scum and waiting for an agreement as to which fake claim he was going to adopt.
I retract 99% of my last post then. I will maintain though, that his delay to post at first adds up if he was scum and waiting for an agreement as to which fake claim he was going to adopt.
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@Greyparrot
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
@Speedrace
@SirAnonymous
Oromagi just scum-slipped hardcore. When Oro joins a game, soft claiming is typically the very first thing he does. Oro says that he has soft claimed this game as well.
From post #442:
-->@oromagi4 votes on you, full claimFolks familiar with my style of play know that I've already made my claim, albeit a little concealed by anagrams and crossword puzzle clues.
Oromagi lied here. He has also lied in stating that this is his soft claim:
plain = VANILLAwe have a problem = Houstona removable ten plain sacks, phew! - plain =a removable ten sacks phew-(we have a problem)=tecksans=Texans
I have gone through all his posts since day 1. He did not soft claim at all this day phase. He hard claimed at post #257, but that was it.
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7621/post-links/328388
This doesn't make sense if he is town. But if he's scum, it makes perfect sense. He didn't know which fake claim he would be taking. He didn't have a soft claim off the bat. So he didn't soft claim at all. Now he's pretending he did and hoping no one notices. Either that, or he created one in the scum discord and forgot to paste it.
We ought to hammer Oro.
This doesn't make sense if he is town. But if he's scum, it makes perfect sense. He didn't know which fake claim he would be taking. He didn't have a soft claim off the bat. So he didn't soft claim at all. Now he's pretending he did and hoping no one notices. Either that, or he created one in the scum discord and forgot to paste it.
We ought to hammer Oro.
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@badger
Might I ask how you came to that conclusion, or is it "gut feeling" alone?
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@badger
@badger, I'm not sure what you mean by "POE." Can you explain?Process of elimination.
Oh, thanks. I knew that acronym before, just forgot *facepalm*
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@badger
@That2User
Any of you 2 claim the Seattle Seahawks?
I am not the Seahawks. @That2User
Speed. Chris is mostly POE. Speed is mostly POE too tbh, but it feels like he only talks to people who talk to him. I really don't know how to explain the read. Mafia feel an inherent pressure in posting in the DP. Every post is another post to give them away. The read is out there for sure.
@badger, I'm not sure what you mean by "POE." Can you explain?
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@ILikePie5
"Barney - Lean Scum - Dude’s a moderator and is inactive. He’s obviously lurking. The only contributory thing he’s done is the dashboard, but that’s all he does. He asked a question to GP. Idr if GP answered, but if he hasn’t, why hasn’t Barney followed up on it. It seems like an attempt to be scum hunting but not really."
Barney is a pretty busy dude. From my time modding with him I've gotten to know how sparse his DART activity can be. This means very little.
We can say he hasn't been contributing much, but I don't think that correlates to him being scum in this case.
What I find particularly interesting is that you seem to be ditching your own strategy here to go after him. Weren't you the one insisting on going after the scum present in NFC West and AFC South? Barney is in neither.
We can say he hasn't been contributing much, but I don't think that correlates to him being scum in this case.
What I find particularly interesting is that you seem to be ditching your own strategy here to go after him. Weren't you the one insisting on going after the scum present in NFC West and AFC South? Barney is in neither.
"I want to start getting claims from the two divisions with 3 people in them. Possibly even get full claims from one person we all agree on from each division, based on behavior, character, etc."
That includes Oro (AFC South), and most seem to agree that he's been suspect in this game.
Should we not start with the best lead we have rather than lynching irrationally?
I'm voting Oro. VTL Oromagi
I'm voting Oro. VTL Oromagi
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@ILikePie5
Of those within NFC West and AFC South, who would you want to investigate first?
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@ILikePie5
I could get behind that if there are additional factors besides just their division alone. Still, we should note that with 8 possible divisions, and we have 12 players, repetition is necessary, and it's not necessarily a given that Mharman/Lunatic divided things evenly.
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Considering that scum have a pool of fake claims that emulate town, the only hypothesis I'd have as to the theme split is that the scum players are AFC West, since no one has claimed them. But, even if my hypothesis is correct (and it probably isn't) that doesn't help us in deciding who to lynch, because, again, the scum have fake claims. The only way to find scum until we have more information is based on behavioral tells. I don't think conference/division is going to help us at all.
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-->@ILikePie5I am innocent. When I get my PM later it will confirm it.
Considering Wylted thought he was replacing me, this statement is interesting. It implies Wylted town-read me and expected to receive my TOWN role. Either that, or he had no idea what I was and was just being Wylted.
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Is there a difference between "conference" and "division," or are they synonymous?
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@PREZ-HILTON
Okay, I am swapping in for Mr. Chris. I was told if he didn't post by morning I would be subbing in.
Jeez, dude.
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@That2User
Is Mhar known to have these role altering roles in his games? Like Judas as Anon mentioned
I wouldn't know, as I can't remember playing very many games run by him. But Lunatic did help him create/balance this game, which may indicate some extra spice in the setup. I doubt we'll see any roles like that, but it's possible.
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@That2User
in the next DP, the full role PM of any eliminated users will be displayed (including his full role/character), unless obstructed/altered by some unexpected mafia role in the game.
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I'm slightly town-reading Pie at the moment, as he initiated the pop-corning process. I wouldn't read into that too much though. It would be a low-risk maneuver from a mafia standpoint, since they have a provided fake claim "pool" and there are multiple teams they could claim within each division if needed.
Grey is a point of interest imo. His claim/role and justification don't mesh very well and he is also acting more "helpful townie" than usual.
"I guess mod feels losing superbowls makes a team more hated than winning too many of them."
"I hope that doesn't lose the game because we can't figure out the mod's theme."
Seems a bit off from his usual "don't give a crap" attitude. To be clear, this is a rather weak read, but it's all I've got so far.
One last thing of note, Mharman has said that some fake claims will be better than others, meaning that he has deliberately made some fake claims rather weak on the mafia side. Grey's bad justification could be explained by this, if he were fake claiming.
We have a lot of time left in this DP, but he will be my lynch pick if no better option arises.
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@SirAnonymous
Gotcha. His habit of continually making new accounts is strange.
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@whiteflame
@SirAnonymous
I am not familiar with Incel-Chud as a user or player. Is he acting in a manner typical of his town play?
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@That2User
It's ooc behavior, that's what's weird about it, who knows the reason why oro is ghosting
The way I read the behavior will fully depend on Oro's explanation/lack of one.
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@Greyparrot
-->@ILikePie5My team is hated for choking in critical games.
Hated by whom?
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Oro being online yet not participating is a bit strange, as Oro's already posted his round in the only debate he is actively participating in, and he has not added any comments, votes or any forum posts today.
That said, I don't think it's a very strong tell of anything as of yet. One could even argue that, being mafia, Oro has a greater incentive to participate than to be AWOL and attract needless attention to himself.
That said, I don't think it's a very strong tell of anything as of yet. One could even argue that, being mafia, Oro has a greater incentive to participate than to be AWOL and attract needless attention to himself.
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Been a hot minute since I've played one of these, or even logged onto DART lol.
Based on what I know of the NFL league, the theme split could be done by region, superbowl victories/lack thereof, team popularity, team records, winning/losing streaks, etc.
There are far too many possibilities to narrow them down with any degree of surety. Our analyses may be best focused towards behavioral cues.
Based on what I know of the NFL league, the theme split could be done by region, superbowl victories/lack thereof, team popularity, team records, winning/losing streaks, etc.
There are far too many possibilities to narrow them down with any degree of surety. Our analyses may be best focused towards behavioral cues.
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@BigPimpDaddy
The site revives each spring/summer and then fizzles out a bit each fall/winter. Just the natural order of things.
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1. Incessant anti-Semitic rhetoric that has reached a boiling point, including implications that the Jews are “reptiles” and insinuating that all Jews could be plotting some evil scheme collectively.
"I don't know if it is just a secret cabal of jews that control everything or all jews are complicit, but they control the music industry and are doing fucked up things."
“man sends off lizard DNA to be tested and the DNA comes back as being g predominantly Jewish, confirming what David Icke has said for years”
“why are the jews afraid to answer for themselves and have to arrest people who criticize them?
And Jews wonder why people hate them.”
2. Excessive vulgarity and some advocacy for extremism.
“You are saying the taliban simultaneously rapes little boys while also putting fags to death for also raping little boys.”
Use of a slur while arguing in support of the Taliban.
(These examples are not exhaustive, just from the past few weeks).
3. Continuation of above behavior despite multiple warnings.
This user has been warned to keep their content in check multiple times. I feel that this is necessary for them to know we are serious.
Their violations line up with Tier 2 of the SPES:
"Tier 2: The complaint is factually accurate, and while mild, it is indeed bordering on rule violations. Moderation will use best discretion on how to proceed. In the event a Tier 2 offense requires action (for example, a user systematically commits borderline rule violations despite mod warnings), the punishment will be less severe than otherwise outlined in the SPES."
Thus, instead of the standard 30 days for systemic toxicity, they will be getting a much lighter 14.
As always, they have the following right as reserved in the SPES: “All users are granted unlimited ability to appeal moderation decisions (banned users may appeal by contacting [email protected]). All legitimate, non-spam appeals are guaranteed to be reviewed by moderation.”
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P.S.
If you all need to contact me at any point, feel free to Discord me @MisterChris#1660
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Hello friends, I have a few updates and an important announcement.
MEEP Results
MEEP Results
It took a while, but the MEEP results have been tallied and implemented (the help center now reflects this: https://info.debateart.com/). All motions passed, and while I understand some of you disagreed with them strongly, I believe you will come to appreciate them in the future.
Where have I been?
I've been gone for a while... I apologize profusely to anyone who has been trying to reach me for the past three or four weeks, as I probably haven't answered. So where have I been?
Frankly, absolutely drowning in real life responsibilities.
- Sundays - Get up, go to church, come back, eat, crunch homework, go to small group, get back, recover mentally, go to bed
- Mondays: Get up, go to class, crunch homework, more class, go home, eat, recover mentally, maybe go on a flight lesson, crunch more homework, go to bed
- Tuesdays: Get up, go to class, crunch homework, more class, go home, eat, go to work, get home and go to bed
- Wednesdays: Get up, go to class, crunch homework, more class, go home, eat, go to my weekly Men's Leadership Training class (it's a two year class), get home, go to bed
-
Thursdays: Get up, go to class, crunch homework, more class, go home, eat, recover mentally, maybe go on a flight lesson, crunch more homework, go to bed
- Fridays - Saturdays: Get up, do whatever I have neglected over the week (usually that's a lot), eat, go to work, get back, go to bed
Then I rinse and repeat the whole cycle... And again, this is rough so things can either be a lot worse than this or a bit better depending on the circumstances.
Point is, by the end of each day I can't so much as rub two braincells together, and I have so little free time that DebateArt has taken the backseat recently in favor of "more important" things (In fact, I'm writing this now when I probably should be studying for an exam tomorrow).
What's worse, is it doesn't look like this is going to get any better anytime soon. To be honest, none of these things I'm doing are things I'm able to (or want to) back out of. And these are all going to be long-term weights on my schedule.
So... what?
I guess all of this is to say... I need to step down, for my own sake and for the sake of the site. And I will being doing so shortly.
It's a decision I've had a tough time making. When I commit to something I try my hardest to see it through, and I wanted to lead the site into a new chapter. Plus, the last thing I want to do is make us administration-hop.
But, to be fully transparent with you all, I don't have enough time to dedicate to the site anymore to justify my position. And ultimately, I'm doing the site a disservice because of that. An AWOL chief mod is just not healthy for the site long-term. More than that, I need to protect my mental health somewhat, which has been suffering a bit.
What's next?
I will be tying up loose ends and handing the reigns to Whiteflame by tomorrow, who has agreed to take my place. I know he will be amazing in the role, and I'm fully confident in him. Ideally, I'll be able to find a good work-life balance eventually... I'd like to be able to return to the site at some point. In fact, I'll probably pop in every now and again, just at a much lower frequency.
I'm quite optimistic about this site's future. And while I may not be a huge part of that future, I'm glad I had the time with you all that I did. It really meant a lot to me to have online friends to talk to and a platform to hone my skills as a debater and leader. I do intend on returning at some point, but in all honesty, that may very well be years from now or for limited bursts every once in a while. For better or for worse I'm entering a new chapter in life...
So, farewell I guess.
MisterChris,
Chief Moderator
So, farewell I guess.
MisterChris,
Chief Moderator
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@Ramshutu
I didn't even mention this in my post because I didn't remember to at the time, but campaigning MUST be done during the sanctioned campaigning period... So it would have been removed regardless of the vulgarity.
Citing the new President policy:
Citing the new President policy:
"The first three weeks of December will be dedicated to optional campaigning, and the rest of the month will be dedicated to the election process, all of which will be overseen and managed by moderation."
&
"ANY forms of campaigning outside of these sanctioned activities are prohibited."
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09/29/2021
Moderators: MisterChris, whiteflame
Moderators: MisterChris, whiteflame
Primarily, a deeply troubling pattern of ideologically extremist rhetoric that invites and mimics a cesspool of white supremacist thought.
A couple aggravating factors:
"things like the MAOA gene (warrior gene) and lower self-control ability of Blacks will represent this heritability in functional/genetic form."
Blatant declaration that black people are violent and unrestrained by nature.
An entire thread dedicated to accusing Nigerian Africans of being intrinsically racist due to, ironically, the color of their skin.
One highlight: "Racial quotas should be immediately implemented to force Blacks out of political power, and instead make sure there is sufficient Asian, Jewish and Middle Eastern representation in Nigeria. Every race's voice needs to be heard except for Blacks because they are racist and oppress the other racial minorities in Nigeria."
Intended as satire or not, the thread was not obviously presented as such, nor does it change the fact that the majority of the OP’s forum activity teeters on the brink of outright racism.
Secondarily, a substantially established connection to the previously permanently-banned user MgtowDemon such that moderation is confident that this user is him despite a lack of IP identification. These parallels include identical beliefs (to a level of intricacy that goes beyond simply sharing ideology), identical site activity, identical writing habits, and identical mannerisms and dispositions.
Given the SPES, which states:
“NOTE: Bots, corporate accounts, and multi-accounts of banned users are not considered legitimate users by moderation and will thus be met with an immediate permanent ban.”
AND the pattern of borderline racist content the user posts, they will be receiving a permanent ban henceforth.
All users retain the following right as reserved in the SPES: “All users are granted unlimited ability to appeal moderation decisions (banned users may appeal by contacting [email protected]). All legitimate, non-spam appeals are guaranteed to be reviewed by moderation.”
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OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT
1. YES (11)
NO (9)
2. YES (18)
NO (8)
3. YES (15)
NO (7)
All propositions have been passed. Henceforth, the changes shall be in effect. The site shall be updated to reflect these policy changes.
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This thread is being locked for excessive vulgarity and being a call-out thread (albeit maybe not intended negatively, it still makes negative assertions about a user).
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The voting period has closed. We will tally the votes and give the final count soon.
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I have a few comments.
First, regarding the DebateArt President... this is the proposal I feel least strongly about. There seemed to be some hype surrounding the idea, but implementing such an office is a delicate task. If we're going to do it, we might as well do it right. So I've created a reasonable office that would be a boon to the site and I am offering it to the community. The President's function isn't undefined, it will be exactly what's said in the document: mostly an elected advisor to the mod team, a lobbyist on behalf of the DART community. This serves not only to give the community a voice but to spur some positive activity... The President won't be able to alter policies or singlehandedly prevent people from being banned or anything else that extreme. They can, however, be a counterbalance against unfair modding practices. As I've said before, read the document. The worse case scenario is that we have a controversial figure in the office who, ultimately, doesn't hurt a thing. The best case scenario is that the community gets a spokesperson who can contribute thoughtfully and help ease the rift that has grown between moderation and the community. Again, this isn't an issue I feel particularly strongly about, but ultimately this office isn't going to measurably hurt the site and could easily help it.
First, regarding the DebateArt President... this is the proposal I feel least strongly about. There seemed to be some hype surrounding the idea, but implementing such an office is a delicate task. If we're going to do it, we might as well do it right. So I've created a reasonable office that would be a boon to the site and I am offering it to the community. The President's function isn't undefined, it will be exactly what's said in the document: mostly an elected advisor to the mod team, a lobbyist on behalf of the DART community. This serves not only to give the community a voice but to spur some positive activity... The President won't be able to alter policies or singlehandedly prevent people from being banned or anything else that extreme. They can, however, be a counterbalance against unfair modding practices. As I've said before, read the document. The worse case scenario is that we have a controversial figure in the office who, ultimately, doesn't hurt a thing. The best case scenario is that the community gets a spokesperson who can contribute thoughtfully and help ease the rift that has grown between moderation and the community. Again, this isn't an issue I feel particularly strongly about, but ultimately this office isn't going to measurably hurt the site and could easily help it.
Second, regarding the Community section... This is literally just an update we've needed to do for a while. The Hall of Fame will be more meaningful and prestigious if we can move a copy of it into the Help Center, somewhere more official (and more difficult to alter) than the forums. If the DART President policy passes, we'll need that space for the policy. As for the ban log, our intent wasn't to advertise the past wrongdoings (or false accusations) of users to more people. In fact, quite the opposite. While we still need that record available for reference, it makes much more sense to put it somewhere more private and official (the Help Center) than plastered in the middle of the forums for all to see. Voting "yes" allows us to do that.
I have a lot more to say about the SPES. I'm going out for some time but I'll come back and share some thoughts.
I have a lot more to say about the SPES. I'm going out for some time but I'll come back and share some thoughts.
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VOTES
1. YES (10)
NO (9)
2. YES (14)
NO (10)
3. YES (14)
NO (7)
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@3RU7AL
Please DM your email to me. I will send you the PDF of each.
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@ILikePie5
Also there should be an amendment process to MEEPs cause I want a recall amendment for President.
After we finish this, you could propose your amendment to the policy in a new MEEP.
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@Wylted
What would that process be like. It isn't going to be one of those things where, any veto you don't like (which would be all of them, because they would contradict your opinion), would be subject to your whimsical overturning of it?
It would require a majority vote from the entirety of the mod team.
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Needless to say, I am voting "yes" to all three.
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@Sum1hugme
Any concern you have that I can comment on?
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@949havoc
Don't see the need to complicate the discipline process already in the CoC.
This doesn't complicate the process. It actually simplifies it drastically by providing clear, simple references to mods for each crime. Without it, we are making up punishments for each infraction as we go. With the previous system, that would create unfair discrepancies in how we would treat certain users. The mods are human, and not immune to bias or mistake. With the SPES, we can look at the policy and give ban times that are fair across the board.
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@RationalMadman
1. I'm not quite clear on the difference. I'll wait for others to comment and vote.
Standardized ban times. The user base has complained that the mod team comes up with seeming arbitrary punishments and on-the-fly consequences, and there is some merit to this claim. With the SPES, the mod team won't ban one user any longer than another for the same infraction. Of course, in the event the SPES is untenable for the situation at hand, mods retain the right to act outside of it. That would be a rather rare scenario, however.
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@RationalMadman
2. no, if that becomes a thing I will be pretty upset but then again I will just leave the site probably, especially if some prick like wont-name-names ends up in a role that can unilaterally veto bans and alter the site while intentionally not doing it for others and the mods can say 'hey, we got a president who didn't veto, your loss' to justify longer, harsher bans and appear reasonable.
Read the policy. The powers of the President are quite limited but exist in order to give the user base a say on perma bans (the top complaint with the previous admin). The President is not able to drastically alter anything, and a veto can be overridden. Furthermore, the role would create site enthusiasm and activity. A problem President likely wouldn't be elected, either. And if they were, no true harm would be done. On the other hand, if a good candidate made it to the office, their advise could help make the site better.
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