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@Polytheist-Witch
In the Old Testament Satan works for God so I am not sure he needs forgiveness. renew.org/satan-in-the-old-testament/
Well he also worked against him too didn't he. He corrupted mankind and beguiled and deceived Eve and was punished for it wasn't he ? Genesis 3:14 There is no mention of god ever forgiving Satan.
Judas is offered the body of Christ by Christ to not go through with the betrayal.
Are you sure about that. Remember he told Judas to go and do what he had to do and do it quickly.
And as usual the scriptures differ on the account. Luke only suggest that Judas was still present for the Eucharist while John has it that Judas "“took the morsel and left at once. And it was night.” This particular morsel was not part of the Eucharist but the bread he dipped in the bowel.
There is one unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Mark 3:28-29 which Judas acts either fall under or don't.
Well again , the ambiguous scriptures do not make this clear either, do they? But nowhere do we read of Judas blaspheming against the "Holy Ghost" whatever that may be or mean as in Mathew 12:32. Unless blasphemy includes betraying Jesus /god ?
Judas acts either fall under or don't. If they do then it's on him. If they don't then he is forgiven
Good point. But if Judas wasn't or hasn't been forgiven, this still contradicts everything Christians are taught about forgiveness. Judas was only human. Whereas Satan, a good friend of god and been with him from the year dot seems to be popping up all over the place at will. Making bets with god, killing jobs 10 children, testing god, testing Jesus. Some punishment that was wasn't it? It didn't seem to last to long did it, this belly crawling for the rest of his day eating dirt? But nowhere is it mentioned that Judas has been forgiven and neither does anyone pray for Judas.
Maybe the Christians here will offer up a prayer of forgiveness for Judas and Satan?
If the plan was for Christ to die Judas played a necessary role and would be forgiven.
Well we have Scripture forever telling us it was all prophesied. Judas acted out and played his part although nowhere in the OT does it once mention that Satan will have a role to play too, in this so called betrayal - But Judas has been vilified and demonised by the church ever since.
And Jesus does say of the betrayer ;
"BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOME THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED! GOOD WERE IT FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NEVR BEEN BORN". [ now hurry up and betray me Judas,quickly] Mark 14:21
So is that blasphemy? There is a lot of woe-ing for he that betrays Jesus....according to Jesus. And no mention of forgiveness.
Just because some preacher says he's in hell doesn't make it true.
That can be said about the scriptures too
There is no reference to Judas' punishment after death.
Here again , what is said happened to Judas after he had done gods works is also contradicted by one author and another. One says suicide while another said he fell of a cliff after his belly exploded, take your pick, Witch.
I mean they can't even get that story right about the most famous betrayer of their time?
Maybe he did all three by some twisted "miracle" he threw himself of a cliff and when that didn't do the job he then gave hanging a try and when that didn't work he tried to eat himself to death and he ate so much that his intestines exploded. That sounds pretty much like a thing the old testament god would cause to happen doesn't it Witch?
The whole point it that no one has prayed nor asked for forgiveness for Judas in the scriptures no matter what he is alleged to have done.
If he blasphemed it can still be asked why hasn't he been forgiven?
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@ronjs
God can and does do whatever He pleases, and he has a plan
Does he? Christians have been spinning that yarn for millennia now. What is the plan? I started a thread on this once and no one knew. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5332-can-christians-prove-god-had-a-plan-for-us-all
Christians do not even know what the "will "of god, to be done is, either. I di a thread on that little enigma too.https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5282-thy-will-be-done
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@Polytheist-Witch
Not sure why it's off to think one should be forgiving.
Because Jesus and the bible dictates that Christians should. See post above for details.#1
But Jesus it appears throws those dictates clean out of the window when it is his turn to forgive, Witch.
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@ronjs
free will
It is also odd that Christians forget the threat of death from the biblical Old Testament god which, in my mind rules out "free will" immediately.
It is also odd that Christians do not even entertain the question as to why when the couple made in his image are given the stern warning of the penalty for defiance, that the same god didn't bother to tell this couple that a servant of his will be along soon to try to tempt them?
The excuse of "free will" is regularly trotted out and used as nothing more than a cop-out for Christians when asked awkward questions that clearly contradict what they will have any one believe that their god is a loving and forgiving God.
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@zedvictor4
Every story has it's heroes and villains.
I agree Vic. But which of those is Judas?
Was he a villain for betraying Jesus? Or was he a hero for taking one for the team and carrying out gods will as "prophesised"?
It appears that to Jesus believed him to be an evil satanic traitor and betrayer going by the vengeful and unforgiving warning that he issues to " he that dips his bread" in his dinner.
"BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOME THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED! GOOD WERE IT FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NEVR BEEN BORN". [ now hurry up and betray me Judas,quickly] Mark 14:21
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@PGA2.0
What did Jesus say to Peter?
He said, " get ye behind me SATAN!!!!! Matthew 16:23
He returned in AD 70.I started such a thread before. The participants largely avoided the issues.
Have you!? Or is that more bullshit? You have started only five threads total on this forum. Four of which are directed to the person. Two of those were directed and personalised towards me. How you got away with breaking that rule puzzles me to this day when the Brother was banned for simply quoting someones biographical profile that was already available to anyone on this forum.. And the fifth is to do with morality.
I cannot locate your thread alleging that Jesus had already returned to earth as promised in 66-70 AD some 35+ years after once laying dead , rotting and stinking for three days and then ascending into heaven, as you claim. Also I see no thread of yours claiming historian Flavius Josephus describing Jesus' return as you claim, either. So when you are ready, maybe you can resurrect your old thread for us all to look at, read , scrutinize and question. In your own time sunshine.
The key is that He said He would come in the Father's glory, so you have to understand what that is.
And how does Flavius Josephus " describe it in much detail " #26 as you claim he does? And you have also already told me that - #25 >>> "TO YOUR MIND"coming in the father's glory can mean two things" - none of which prove a damn thing. Why not three things or four or five or five hundred!!!!!? that will certainly leave no room for doubt, would it!!! Have you even considered that "YOUR MIND" has been tricking you!?
Do you want me to issue the formal challenge?
You must keep missing or misunderstanding what to any one else it plain English would suggest that you start your own thread about your own belief that Jesus has already returned , been and gone again, in 66-70 AD. What do you not grasp about that. I have suggested this to you FOUR FKN TIMES NOW!!!!
I will bold and underline it for you this time so you cannot miss it!
don't we let someone else judge who has the better argument here? How about a formal debate?
I am more than happy to be in conversation discussing my questions and opinions on this open forum.
But how about that you start a thread laying out your belief that Jesus has retuned to earth as promised in 66 - 70 AD already! Let us see how much support and agreement you get from the Christian members on the forum. I should imagine your thread will garner much attention considering most if not all of the theist and some atheist here don't agree with me either . Off you go then.
Why have you failed to create your own thread on your own belief that "to your mind" Jesus had already returned to earth as promised in 66-70 AD some 40 years after being dead for three days and then ascending into heaven, as you claim.
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@ronjs
God (Jesus) is a loving and forgiving God, but is also a just God.
Has he forgiven Judas or Satan for their "transgressions"? >>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5874-judas-had-a-bad-deal
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What did Jesus say to Peter?
He said, " get ye behind me SATAN!!!!! Matthew 16:23
What is it you want me to glean from the links?
You asked me to "bring it on", did you not?
I asked you if you " Would you like more from those many Christian organisations? " and your reply was , "bring it on". So now as I have already said, you can either comment on or argue against those organisations that don't agree with you and your belief that the second coming has been, happened and gone.
I don't care what you do with them or glean from them. It makes absolutely no difference to me. They are just a few Christian churches/organisations that happen to agree with what I believe and not what you believe.
You need to get it inside that pea of yours that no matter how many times you quote biblical verses that you believe "prove" you opinions or belief, that there are as many biblical verses - according to others CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!! - that "prove" that the second coming hasn't happened yet but is immanent! Get over it . You resurrected this thread believing you are clever and able to prove something. You haven't proven a single thing?
I'm not going to read reams of material.
Then don't. But odd it is that this is exactly what you expect others to do .
They are there to show you that they believe opposite to what you believe . You asked for them and you got them. Do what you like with the content, but just like YOU they too produce many biblical verses from scripture that - according to them - prove opposite to what you believe and show Jesus has NOT returned.
I have said to you many times now that for every biblical verse that you post as "proof" that Jesus'return had already happened, these CHRISTIAN churches and organisation can do just the same "proving" his return is imminent but not happened yet.
AND those Christian religious characters that I posted above have all predicted the second coming and all failed to get it right too, every time:
OBVIOUSLY They too must have , just like you, failed to read and understand the bible as well.
Tell me, would these Christian clergy predict the coming of Jesus if it had - according only to you - already happened? And where would they get the idea that it didn't happen. yet.
As I explained, scoffers and mockers were questioning the coming but Peter explains that God is not slow in keeping His promises,Nope . Peter was liar and turncoat. When there are many verses telling us that we should listen to the voice of god, who is it that we should we listen to? Jesus's own words? OR PETER a man that tells lies - and that denied even knowing Jesus three times! Luke 22:59-62? PETER, that was supposed to be "keeping watch" over Jesus but fell asleep three times! that led to Jesus` arrest, trial and barbaric torturous execution? Matthew 26:40? give me a fkn break!You conveniently pick and choose only what you want to mislead others with when it comes to Scripture.
Nope. But you have done that many many times on this thread alone. I choose what is extremely relevant to the theme of MY thread.
What did Jesus say to Peter?
He said, " get ye behind me SATAN!!!!! Matthew 16:23
Why don't we let someone else judge who has the better argument here? How about a formal debate?
I am more than happy on this open forum. But how about that you start a thread laying out your belief that Jesus has retuned to earth as promised in 66 - 70 AD already! Let us see how much support and agreement you get from the Christian members on the forum. I should imagine your thread will garner much attention considering most if not all of the theist and some atheist here don't agree with me either . Off you go then.
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As I explained, scoffers and mockers were questioning the coming but Peter explains that God is not slow in keeping His promises,
Nope . Peter was a the liar and turncoat. When there are many verses telling us that we should listen to the voice of god, who is it that we should we listen to? Jesus's own words? OR PETER a man that tells lies - and that denied even knowing Jesus three times! Luke 22:59-62? PETER, that was supposed to be "keeping watch" over Jesus but fell asleep three times! that led to Jesus` arrest, trial and barbaric torturous execution? Matthew 26:40? give me a fkn break!
Joseph Smith is not even recognized as a Christian but a false prophet
I agree, as are you. Your own bullshit is totally on par with this fake "prophet". You are no better and have nothing new to say only regurgitate all the Shite that has been said in the past.
No biblical Christian who has an ounce of sense recognizes the Mormons as brothers in Christ.
Except other Christian Mormons and perhaps our resident monk, Mopac
You claimed Peter was teaching a no-show.
Nope. Again you are putting words into my mouth. I have claimed that Peter, the lying turncoat, actually tried to explain away Jesus' no show with the bullshit excuse that to "the Lord" a generation was a thousands years. And only came up with that shite years after the crucifixion and the population had started to question the promised return.. Its a shame Jesus didn't mention the " 1,000 years" crap at the time, isn't it?
And you keep forgetting Jesus' actual words according to the scripture.>>>>> :“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28. That will be those " alive and standing " at the time of the promise to you and in any language including ancient Greek!
Even at his trial he told the priests and the council that they too would witness his return Or have you also forgotten this>>>:"you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven"Matthew26: 63, 64.
What did Jesus mean when He said He would come in His Father's glory, with His angels, and that He would give everyone their due recompense?
You don't get this at all do you? That shite is for you to explain, ( if it is at all relevant to the thread). It is not for me to support your own mental theory or beliefs about Jesus already having returned as promised. So you explain it and I will read your explanation and any relevance you believe it has to this thread.
Okay, commitment! You say 1st-century.
Stop putting words into my mouth. What I say is that Jesus hasn't returned on a cloud after resurrecting form the dead and stinking in his rich friends tomb for days and then descending from "heaven".
MILLIONS !!!! of Christians don't believe that his return hasn't happened at all , "yet" but his arrival is immanent.
So, once again, what are the signs that Jesus said would happen in that generation?
Already covered and again this was explained earlier when Jesus to his disciples said of the signs to look out for.. I mentioned this is my very first post. But you are so so far up your own arse that you didn't bother to read it or have simply forgotten what I wrote. Either way, here it is again...
Jesus then goes further telling them which “signs” to look out for but this time including the whole “generation” and ending again with:
“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.
Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<THIS on top of those further promises about returning before those ALIVE AT THE TIME OF THE PROMISE PASS AWAY LOOK>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
:“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.
Even at his trial he told the priests and the council that they too would witness his return Or have you also forgotten this>>>:"you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven"Matthew26: 63, 64.
Now to the dozens of questions you failed to answer.
I believe I have answered those relevant to the thread -- my thread. And you can believe what the fk you like.
Why don't we let someone else judge who has the better argument here? How about a formal debate?
I am more than happy on this open forum. But how about that you start a thread laying out your belief that Jesus has retuned to earth as promised in 66 - 70 AD already! Let us see how much support and agreement you get from the Christian members on the forum. I should imagine your thread will garner much attention considering most if not all of the theist and some atheist here don't agree with me either . Off you go then.
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Matthew 5:44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies.
Matthew 5:39. Turn the other cheek.
Luke 6:27. Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you.
Ephesians 4:32. Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.
Matthew 6:12-14 And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us........
..............and on and on it goes, love and forgive, love and forgive. . That is until we get to Judas, where we read from the lips of Jesus god himself his dire warning of vengeance.:
"BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOME THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED! GOOD WERE IT FOR THAT MAN IF HE HAD NEVR BEEN BORN". [ now hurry up and betray me Judas,quickly] Mark 14:21
We can just feel and see the warm compassion and forgiveness in those words of vengeance can't we? We can also see all those verses about Love and forgiveness go flying clean out of the window too.
Acceptable to Christians that this vengeful warning may be, and as contradictory to the fluffy nature that the scriptures attempt to portray Jesus to be, Christians have to realise that everything that Judas did, was all preordained by god himself , if we are to believe all the prophecies were being carried out. According to Christians and the Bible, this is what " must" happen and Jesus "spoke plainly " about what "must"happen too. Mark 8:31-32. So why the vengeful threat towards Judas, who didn't seem to flinch at the thought of the woe's that awaited him?
We can pick up the story at the last supper where Jesus announces in his usual cryptic fashion that he is about to be betrayed by one of those that dips his bread in the dinner bowel. Which at that point could have been any of them considering this is how a meal was eaten in those times, ie. everyone dipping bread into the same bowl of what ever was on offer.
The protests of "not me Lord" "who is it Lord" and " I would never do that to you Lord " are aplenty . Then-we read that Satan entering Judas and Jesus instructing Judas to go do what he is about to do and to do it quickly.John 13:27. All preordained see. So why the vengeful threat to his betrayer?
As an aside:
Odd isn't it that no one present asked why Judas was leaving the party at night in the dark. There are various excuses made for Judas' sudden disappearance but as usual they simply don't stack up. It is said some thought he was going to buy supplies for the supper, ....that they had already eaten.
But among those things that should stand out is the fact that Satan has entered Judas...... and no one recognised it!? Do the heavily relied on Old Testament for prophecies mention anything about Satan being involved in Jesus' betrayal? NO. The only 'prophecy' that is said to foretell of the betrayal that has been latched onto is Zechariah 11:12-13.
So here we have Judas being warned about doing what he is about to do, and on Jesus` word he goes out into the night to do what he had been instructed to do. But he will wish he had never been born when he does so.
Why hadn't a single one of those present recognized a demon when they seen one and cast him out? nearly 100 of his disciples had only recently been bragging about how they had cast out demons after being endowed with superpowers.Luke 10:17
And nowhere, in the whole of the scriptures will anyone read of anyone praying for love and the forgiveness of Judas...............Or Satan, come to think of it.
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But YOU! In typical fashion of the theist caught on the backfoot, you have ignored what these scriptures actually state.LOOK>> “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.What generation does the text infer? Answer that
I have already. Jesus also says the those alive at the time that he made his promise return will see him return.
Or have you forgotten this >> :“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.
Even at his trial he told the priests and the council that they too would witness his return Or have you also forgotten this>>>:"you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven"Matthew26: 63, 64.
And I gave you quite a few. And most of all, I have shown you that for every cherry picked verse that you believe "proves" Jesus had already returned in 70 AD, there are as many if not more verses that hundreds of CHRISTIAN organisations can cherry pick from showing Jesus has not returned yet but his arrival is imminent. Would you like more from those many Christian organisations? Which kind of makes nonsense of your own bullshit, doesn't it? Face it, you have been out bullshitted by a better outfit that has more knowledge about these ambiguous and unreliable scriptures than you will ever live to know.Bring it on.
See below. And just to remind you, as unreliable as Wikipedia is I cannot see it as having any reasons to exaggerating the times the "second coming" has been already predicted BY CHRISTIANS since the ascending AND the fall of Jerusalem.
Just to list a few of hundreds:
Sextus Julius Africanus a Christian historian as was Irenaeus who was brought up in a Christian. St Beatus of Liébana he was a christian , theologian and geographer. Hippolytus of Rome was one of the most important second-third century Christian theologians.
Pope Sylvester II Jan 1000, John Wesley English cleric, theologian, and evangelist, who was a leader of a revival movement within the Church of England known as Methodism predicted 1836, Catholic Apostolic Church predicted 1901 and the very famous Jehovah's Witnesses who predicted 1914.
ALL ARE Christians . They too must have , just like you, failed to read and understand the bible too.
What do Catholics think of the second coming?
Jesus Will Return Soon/ Unsettling signs of Jesus’ return
Is Jesus Coming Back Soon?
Jesus' Second Coming
Signs Of The Second Coming
Second Coming Of Jesus Christ
As in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man
FOURTEEN SIGNS ANNOUNCING CHRIST'S RETURN
Take a verse at a time so we don't get swamped.
That is your bullshit forte , . you can argue with the comments and against those cherry-picked biblical verses in those links that state Jesus hasn't returned yet and it won't make a blind bit of difference to me. Although, interestingly ,they do happen to agree with me that Jesus hasn't returned and so far has failed in his promise.
So, knock yourself out.
Why would you come to a God you do not believe exists
I haven't. I have joined a forum that allows me to scrutinise and criticize and highlight the ambiguous anomalous half stories that make up scripture and ask the likes of you to explain them and answer my questions. But you never can without invoking the super natural , such as hundreds of years old corpses coming to life again.
I mean He died, was buried and rose again from the dead three days later.Prove it!?What proof will you accept?
Well you could start by explain how a man dead and rotting for three days came back to life...........................In a thread of your own.
Why don't we let someone else judge who has the better argument here? How about a formal debate?
I am more than happy on this open forum. But how about that you start a thread laying out your belief that Jesus has retuned to earth as promised in 66 - 70 AD already! Let us see how much support and agreement you get from the Christian members on the forum. I should imagine your thread will garner much attention considering most if not all of the theist and some atheist here don't agree with me either . Off you go then.
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You started this pissing match with ad hominem.
Nope, wrong again.
I started this thread questioning Jesus's failure to return when he promised to according to scripture. You have claimed he kept his promise and returned in 70 AD. You haven't proven that and millions of Christians contradict you and your belief, as stupid as it is..
The problem is you started a thread on a subject that I have studied in depth for over ten years.
Which comes nowhere near my 40+ years years in bible study and the New Testament in particular. and it is not a "problem" for me.
It is no skin off my back what you think but when you post it on a forum get ready to be challenged.
I am. And you still haven't proven anything.
I believe your view does not have a leg to stand on.
What view is that?
I can prove it. As I pointed out, there is evidence for my faith. Can I prove it to you without a doubt? No, not likely
Stamping your feet again. You really should grow up sunshine.
You choose not to believe.
I choose not to believe YOUR version of events.
You have been told Christianity does not make sense,
Nope. Wrong again. I found out for myself that scripture makes no sense in the way it has come down to us.
[ that] Christianity is not true.
Wrong again. I know Christians ergo Christianity exists. I just don't believe what YOU and other Christians believe in.
I'm hoping for a reasoned response
And I gave you quite a few. And most of all, I have shown you that for every cherry picked verse that you believe "proves" Jesus had already returned in 70 AD, there are as many if not more verses that hundreds of CHRISTIAN organisations can cherry pick from showing Jesus has not returned yet but his arrival is imminent. Would you like more from those many Christian organisations? Which kind of makes nonsense of your own bullshit, doesn't it? Face it, you have been out bullshitted by a better outfit that has more knowledge about these ambiguous and unreliable scriptures than you will ever live to know.
You mean Jesus never died.
I do.
I mean He died, was buried and rose again from the dead three days later.
Prove it!?
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@BrotherDThomas
What I have had to accept as a TRUE Christian, is the Biblical FACT that when Jesus was raised from His 3 day tomb nap in a Zombie form, He therefore really didn't DIE for our sins because He came back to life, and to be a true sacrifice, you have to remain DEAD!Bottom line, JESUS DID NOT DIE in the true sense of the term for our sins! :(
Exactly Brother!! And I understand that when this fact revealed itself to you via all your years of religious study, that it must have come as a great shock to you.
Bottom line, JESUS DID NOT DIE in the true sense of the term for our sins! :(
Brother, through all of your years of dogged bible and religious study and years of religious training and preaching do you recall reading that other extremely coincidental story left to us from the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus concerning three of his friends? I know you are a busy man so please allow me to remind you.
“And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as
I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance.
I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to betaken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands,while the third recovered”.
So here above Josephus asked Titus in person to have his friends taken down and spared, this was when Vespasian was Emperor. Now we read from John’s gospel;
“And after this Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus:and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus”. John 19:38-42.KJV
But this ` coincidental ' story doesn't end there. If you recall Brother, the two brigands hanging next to the biblical Jesus at his crucifixion didn't make it either but Jesus, just as with Josephus' friend, recovered too.
What do you think Brother? What an amazing coincidence, eh!!!!?
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You are just plain cold closed to listening. You have eyes that do not see, ears that do not hear, and a heart that will not soften.
No. that will be you.
And like I have shown above. For every one of your cherry picked verses you decide and believe fits your own narrative there are just as many from Christian organisations that can, will and do, cherry pick verses to say Jesus hasn't returned yet but his return is "imminent".
So stop stamping your feet and crying about it.
Well, after three days His body would not have yet rotted.
"rotting" , is what I have wrote. Here educate yourself ffs! Decomposition begins several minutes after death, with a process called autolysis, or self-digestion. Soon after the heart stops beating, cells become deprived of oxygen, and their acidity increases as the toxic by-products of chemical reactions begin to accumulate inside them.
Who cares what you think
You do. It is why your are crying and stamping your feet all over the forum because I do not agree with you.
unless you can back up your conjecture as reasonable and truthful.
What!? I have said quite plainly, open and clear to you, that I cannot prove what I believe. I have used the word "coincidence" often. Not once have I made no claims that what I believe is fact.
But the odd ting here is that while you ask me to "back up my conjecture", YOU have shown YOUR support of my belief that Jesus was alive and well at the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70!!!!! Is this another coincidence?
The difference is that YOU state it as fact whereas I made it clear I cannot prove a single thing.
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@BrotherDThomas
In addressing your well deserved post #92, the real question is how many times will my serial killer Jesus the Christ forgive ETRNLVW and the #1 Bible fool and runaway from the Bible, FAUXLAW?
Good question, Brother, when we consider that Judas was vilified and never forgiven for doing exactly what was planned and prophesised by god for him to do.
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@PGA2.0
The same way you saw Him go into heaven? He went into heaven, "and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.And hasn't returned and you haven't proven that he did , So please change your boring record. And millions of Christians do not agree with you.You are very disingenuous here. You set up a thread, tell everyone that Jesus was a no-show, then, when refuted, provide these one-liners with little proof.
Little proof of what.?
I haven't made the claim that he has already returned. That was YOU! sunshine.
I didn't make the claim to those people living at the time of the promise that they will witness him/Jesus return on a cloud, either.
Peter's verse about "scoffers" only comes years after the people started to wise up and ask where was Jesus.
when refuted
"refute" means that you have shown proof. But you haven't shown proof of anything that actually proves your claim. I have told you, pointing to ambiguous and unreliable verses from the same ambiguous and unreliable source does not amount to any kind of proof.
There are millions of Christians still waiting for his return. AND just like YOU, they too quote verses from the bible that - according to them - point to Jesus' imminent return - that hasn't happened yet.
Here is just one example of Christians believing Jesus' arrival is near . Notice how many pointless bible verses they too point to that profess his arrival is imminent.
Here's another that "refutes" your claim
Shall I just keep posting Christian organisations the "refute" what you insist as already happened?
The interesting thing about this conversation is that we agree on nearly everything. I believe there is a great possibility that Jesus was alive and well in 70 AD.
You claim he definitely was and had returned from the dead to show himself at the fall of Jerusalem.
I don't believe he was raised from being deceased and physically dead after laying there stinking and rotting in his private rich friends tomb set in private grounds, for three days .
You believe as the bible claims in the miracle that Jesus rose from the dead after three days. ( And you nor the bible has ever explained who raised him)?
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@BrotherDThomas
"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." (Hebrews 9:27)Jesus H. Christ, where do these dumbfounded pseudo-christians like EtrnlVw come from that are embarrassing this esteemed forum by just being here?
Yes, dead and no return. Quite plain isn't it.
But you must forgive them and ETRNLVW , Brother. For they know not what their scripture is all about because they don't read it for themselves. They have not eyes to see or ears to hear. I am reminded of the passage where Jesus says; "Father, FFS, ! Why I am surrounded by clowns!? I had a better conversation with a loaf of fkn bread at break-fast this morning!"
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@PGA2.0
The same way you saw Him go into heaven? He went into heaven, "and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.
And hasn't returned and you haven't proven that he did , So please change your boring record. And millions of Christians do not agree with you.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Proverbs 6:16-19There are six things which the Lord hates,Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,And hands that shed innocent blood,A heart that devises wicked plans,Feet that run rapidly to evil,A false witness who utters lies,And one who spreads strife among brothers.The gay ain't even on this list.
Yes, Witch. Such is the contradictory nature of the classical mess we know as scripture.
Jesus never said a thing about homosexuals.
But Jesus is god is he not? And god commands that homosexuals be put to death, has he not? Leviticus 20:13
He also traveled and didn't stay in one place long.
That's what people do when they are on the wanted list, Witch, they move around staying in different places or secret hideaways.
since he never taught against homosexuality
But Paul, his greatest admirer and believed by many to be founder of Christianity, did:
"For this cause God gave them up into vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, Leaving the natural use of the woman, Burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, And receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. . . who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death." (Romans 1:26-27)
Not sure the libtards will appreciate the choice of words there , Witch. " natural use of a woman" . Sounds like ` Saint `Paul is saying that women were only put on earth for one other thing besides cooking and cleaning.
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone coming from ` St Paul` though. It is he that tells women to keep their mouth shut and leave all the talking to the men. 1 Corinthians 14:34. Yes, this is `St ` Paul. Murderer of hundreds of Jesus's own flock. He that admitted to killing women and throwing them from their houses. Yes, Witch, Jesus seemed to have taken a shine to ` St Paul` so much so that he was granted a special visit from Christ himself after the accession into "heaven" to ask ` St Paul` that he had it all wrong and would he mind not murdering women on his account.
.
Just don't know how that effects his teaching
What did he teach, Witch? Let me tell you, that for every fluffy thing the scriptures say Jesus said , they also say he said the opposite. Here's a few examples:
Equal then not equal
John 10:30 " I and the Father are one".John 14:28 “ I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" .
I judge then I don't judge
John 5:22 , 30. " Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just".John 8:15 " You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.John 12:47 " I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
I am my own witness and it is true. Then It is not true.
John 8:14 “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going".John 5:31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.
Man is not my witness. Man is my witness .
John 33-34 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.John 15:27 "And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
And this is just skimming the surface , Witch. We also have "honour your father and mother" and "hate your father and mother". AND " Love your enemies" - "I have not come to bring peace but a sword". This list is long and varied, Witch, so can you tell me what it was that Jesus actually taught anyone that probable wasn't common sense and moral before he arrived on earth.
And much of the so called "Sermon on the Mount" is not original to Jesus either, Witch. And if you have read it closely enough you shouldn't fail to notice that it separates and categorizes people into their worthiness of reward. Yet the only reward for homosexuality according to god/Jesus, is death.
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@theweakestlink
I came out as a homosexual AFTER I was an atheist you fucking prick.I am going to block you
Hahahahhahhahah . Well just you remember that you have.
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@Theweakeredge
have failed to provide even the most basic response to the facts I've provided.
Lord you really are a boring tit , aren't you.
I haven't failed at anything, especially not debunking your throwaway comment : saying that "religious people are mentally ill is not only stigmatizing to mental illness, but also... factually incorrect"#40
I am not interested in what you have provided. You are wrong , period!
And you still haven't explained why after years and years of believing in god , why you decided not to believe in god just because you eventually decided that you were Homosexual? How can god just disappear because you discovered yourself to be homosexual?
You were quite happy believing in god when you didn't know you were homosexual. You were happy that god believed homosexuals to be an "abomination" when you were "straight". Never mind. I am past caring.
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@Theweakeredge
No - you chose a specific part of Muslims,
Who are religious devotees to Islam. Which is a religion!
Respond to my argument or you can expect no more engagement.
I have responded to your sweeping statement and have shown it to be tripe. I am not too interested in engaging you further.
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@ronjs
God can offer effective, permanent solutions to any problem He so chooses.
Such as? One read of the Old Testament shows that god's solution to all his own problems is to kill humans and destroy things. And encourage other humans to kill other humans when he is too bone idle to do it himself.
Plan A didn't work so he destroyed the whole planet with a flood. Some of his own creations didn't turn out heterosexual so he decide to wipe the populations of five cities from the face of the earth including babies and children. Is this what you mean by "effective"?
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@Theweakeredge
but I think I see why people find you.... unconvincing.
More opinion.
You have yet to actually address my primary argument.
I questioned your own sweeping comment. It was only that , that I was interested in.
After your statement about the mental state of the religious not being mentally ill, I was interested in your opinion on the mental health of religious people and in this case for instance, I chose devote religious Muslims as apposed to devout religious Christians, that you suggest are not mentally ill . And to suggest as such is, in your opinion, "factually incorrect!".
You appear now to want to turn this all around on me and into an uncalled for argument because your statement as been shown to be utter bollocks. Knock yourself out.
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@Theweakeredge
Muslims would be a terrorist or "mentally ill" (as you are alluding to regardless if you want to admit it)
Oh I can admit. I think ALL religious bombers are mentally ill and all those that support and finance the "cause of Islam". You seem to be struggling to do the same.
Again you are committing a fallacy. Instead of handwaving away the fact that you are making a false equivalence, actually own it.
Away with your opinions. You made a statement that falls flat at its first fence. and you have just proven that fact for me.
"saying that religious people are mentally ill is not only stigmatizing to mental illness, but also... factually incorrect"#40
WRONG!
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@Theweakeredge
saying that religious people are mentally ill is not only stigmatizing to mental illness, but also... factually incorrect - now - it is acceptable to perhaps claim that they are, in cases, delusional, but to paint such a broad brush is typically a fallacy.What do you consider religious Muslim jihadi suicide bombers to be? Stable, devout and in full control of all of their faculties??Do you consider them an example of the average religious believer?Irrelevant. They consider themselves religious and devout. Can you not simply address the question instead of posing a question of your own as a reply?You are attempting to frame what I said - "religious people aren't mentally ill" as incorrect by giving me Muslim bombers
And you are simply avoiding a question that puts your comment to the test. I haven't said religious people are mentally ill. I have highlighted devout religious Muslim suicide bombers. That are deeply religious and obey the instructions of their god and their book, just as some devout Christians do.
, so yes actually - whether they are an example of the average believer is EXTREMELY relevant.
That is your opinion.
You don't understand the concept -
P-leeease, not that old chestnut. I understand perfectly what you have written. It is always someone else that "doesn't understand", or haven't understood the "context" or doesn't understand "ancient fkn Greek", isn't it!?
you are making a false equivalence here,
No. I am following up on your own comment and asking YOU in relation to your own comment, what it is you consider a devout religious Muslim Jihadi suicide bomber to be if not mentally ill? Or have you forgotten your own statement? here it is>>> "saying that religious people are mentally ill is not only stigmatizing to mental illness, but also... factually incorrect"#40
Or are you going to suggest to the Muslim world that they are not religious?
I asked the question because you are making a fallacy.
No. It is not "fallacy" or "factually incorrect" that DEVOUT RELIGIOUS Muslim jihadis are willing to kill themselves in the act of murdering non believers on the instructions of their god and their book. And you asked a question of your own because your comment has been blown out of the water.
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@Theweakeredge
saying that religious people are mentally ill is not only stigmatizing to mental illness, but also... factually incorrect - now - it is acceptable to perhaps claim that they are, in cases, delusional, but to paint such a broad brush is typically a fallacy.What do you consider religious Muslim jihadi suicide bombers to be? Stable, devout and in full control of all of their faculties??Do you consider them an example of the average religious believer?
Irrelevant. They consider themselves religious and devout. Can you not simply address the question instead of posing a question of your own as a reply?
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@Greyparrot
Do Ungrateful people deserve charity/welfare?
Tricky one that.
I think these ILLEGAL so called "asylum seekers" are ungrateful fkrs after being rescued from drowning in the English channel and then setting fire to the army barracks that they were accommodated in, clothed in the top designer gear, fed three square a day , given £40.00 a week to spend and given tv and video games and sports facilities.
They then went on a march through the local town demanding to be put up in hotels.
So no, they don't deserve a penny more in welfare or charity. They should be deported immediately, forthwith. Lets not forget that they are Illegals.
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@Theweakeredge
saying that religious people are mentally ill is not only stigmatizing to mental illness, but also... factually incorrect - now - it is acceptable to perhaps claim that they are, in cases, delusional, but to paint such a broad brush is typically a fallacy, (It also makes no one want to interact with you cause you seem like a tad bit of an asshole)
What do you consider religious Muslim jihadi suicide bombers to be? Stable, devout and in full control of all of their faculties??
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@BrotherDThomas
PGA2.0's long "War and Peace" dissertations are to throw you off
I noticed , Brother.
whereas his mental capacity cannot even come close to scaling them down in a precise manner.
Indeed, I noticed that too. And what he produces as proof goes nowhere in proving Jesus ' promised return after his accession to " heaven " had already occurred in AD 70. And no matter how many biblical verses he produces to fit his beliefs and believes proves his case, they don't!
Besides, what did you expect in him being a Satanic "PRETEREST" where this division of Christianity accepts an "invisible resurrection" of Jesus the Christ on Pentecost Sunday, June 22, AD 66! Huh?
As I have pointed out, Brother, he accuses me often of "asserting", when I assert nothing other than that which is clearly stated in these ambiguous unreliable scriptures.
PGA2.0 on the other hand, attempts to tell me that the even Jew turncoat Pharisee and historian Flavius Josephus witnessed the return of "Jesus on a cloud " as per promise.
"Josephus describes it in much detail".#26 <<< this is of course simply bare faced lie.
He has since backpedaled slightly on that claim, and tells us Josephus is saying that the missiles of flame and smoke catapulted at the city of Jerusalem were in fact "Jesus coming on a cloud" as he had promised. You mentioned "mental capacity" above, I ask you, has anyone ever heard of such lunacy? But he is more than entitled to his beliefs.
The facts are that this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. " <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< did not and has not happened!
And neither has this >>>>>>>>>>>Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
As many of these high and mighty, holier than thou twats, often do, he must have thought me far too stupid not to have ever heard of, never mind read the works of Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus for myself.
Can it get anymore laughable
No. It can't, Brother.
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@PGA2.0
Can you arrange your bs above so I can decipher it ? Or simply do not waste my time.
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@Theweakeredge
Stephen you know I'm an atheist
Ah yes. I had to apologise to you for having you down as a christian.
However, the entire "homosexuals are abominations" to the lord made me extremely uncomfortable and eventually quite angry.
"Both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death". Leviticus 20:13
Well at least you have been able to see that it is not only homosexual "acts and practices" that are an "abomination to the Lord" but homosexuals too. There are many backpedaling apologetic Christians on this forum that attempt to separate the two in desperation to prove their god to be a loving and caring god.
Why were these people being isolated by the bible,
They are isolated by God in the bible and in turn, by many devout Christians. Then again, you already know that there is a Pastor, Chaplin here that believes "the bible cannot cause anything"! #3 don't you.
No, the "abominations" were innocent people who happened to feel uncontrollable attraction towards their same gender, and what was wrong with it.
And created by the perfect hands of god to perfection if we are expected to believe what is written in the bible. But Christians will deny even this while ignoring the fact the the bible makes it clear on many occasions that god created " all things" : " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" . Isaiah 45:7 King James Version; John 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Next was really the fact that ANYBODY could ask for forgiveness and get it as long as they were "sincere". [.......................................]and yeah that allowed me to come to the conclusion that god was bullshit.
Indeed. One can go to heaven for committing all types of "sin" with the exception of being a homosexual and blasphemy I believe- Leviticus 24:16. So it looks like you are going to cop a double dose there, doesn't it.
On my thread concerning the recent comments by the Pope and homosexuality I wrote :
The document went on to say that “God does not and cannot bless sin”, adding: “He blesses sinful man, so that he may recognise that he is part of his plan of love and allow him to be changed by him.”https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/catholic-church-cannot-bless-same-sex-unions-vatican-decreesInteresting it is that the Pope tells us "he blessed the sinful man" while Leviticus tells us this particular kind of "sinful man" should be put to death. #10
This too was a bit of backpedaling apologetics by the leader of the Catholic Church.
I wasn't surprised when my thread didn't attract any devout Christians.https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5818-no-blessing-for-same-sex-marriages
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@Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge wrote: I used to be one, who believed in the trifecta god@Tarik wrote: I don’t remember you ever sharing this with us before, so (I know it’s no longer the case) what made you a believer in the first place?Theweakeredge wrote: Huh, thought I had - I was raised a baptist, I was a youth leader, did the whole bible camp, I even gave lectures/preached to the younger congregation. I was pretty into the bible thing for a while.
And what is your position now. Are you still a member any `flock `?
- I noticed that you missed the question Tarik asked you " what made you a believer in the first place?" Do you have a reply for this question, I too would be interested in what made you a believer in the first place?
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@BrotherDThomas
YOUR BIBLICAL IGNORANCE IS SHOWING ONCE AGAIN IN YOUR INEPT QUOTE IN POST #27: "But, knowing the many physically harmful effects of smoking, with very little to recommend it, other than a brief enjoyment factor. As long as I choose to say, "no," my choices, and freedom, remain wide open. Once I decide to smoke, however, and continue, thus acquiring a physically addicting habit, my choices thereafter become limited. That's no longer freedom, is it?"How many times do I have to biblically school you again in front of the membership? You erroneously keep saying "my choices and freedom, remain wide open." Again you slap Jesus in the face with your alleged "choices," whereas even you being a pseudo-christian, Jesus determines what you will do from birth until your earthly demise, understand you Bible ignorant fool?!“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." (Ephesians 1:11) Key word: PREDESTINED where Jesus’ Jewish creation have absolutely no free agency, aka, free will, because Jesus as God predetermines what you will do in every little and great part of your life, understand simpleton Bible fool? Huh?"The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the Lord." (Proverbs 16:33). Once again, you have no choices because Jesus controls your life completely, get it?FAUXLAW, YOU ARE 100% GUILTY OF THIS INSPIRED BY JESUS VERSE: "Only a simpleton would not know, and only a fool would not understand this:". (Psalm 92:6)
Not too difficult to do though, is it Brother.
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This is not the return of the son of god coming on a cloud to make peace and unite his people.Sure it was. There was a two-fold judgment;
More BS. You just love making it up as you go, don't you. How many times? Posting unreliable verses from the same unreliable source does not make for proof of anything at all.
Listen , I will never agree that your boy returned from the dead and appeared at the fall of Jerusalem on a cloud of smoke, donkey or a bus.
Christians cannot even make up their minds about the timing of this promised return (even Jesus aka GOD! said he didn't know Matthew 24:36). You for instance will have us believe the promised return as already happened in 70 AD, offering no proof but verses from the thousands of years old verses from Danial et al and other Old Testament characters from that period . All those OT predictions have been debunked millions of times over.
And then there are the millions of Christians and Christian denominations that believe the promised return hasn't happened yet. They too put up verses from the Old & New Testaments that are supposed to point to and explain why and when it will happen. This is the contradictory and ambiguous nature of the scriptures: that they can be taken to read whatever YOU decide them to read. And you , like them are full of BS.
Josephus.Galilean zealots led by someone whose name was John and a personal enemy of historian Flavius Josephus, a John who had taken over the temple, and along with a Simon had killed their own people and had “spilt the blood” of Galileans inside of it. <<<READ THAT CAREFULLY, and then read what the Jesus of the gospels has to say. Flavius Josephus The Wars Of The Jews) Or The History Of The Destruction OfJerusalem. Books V, VI and VII.BibleAnd from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV). Is this a coincidence?Is the collapse of Siloam tower incident yet another coincidence?Bible"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”Josephus.“NOW,on the next night, a surprising disturbance fell upon the Romans; forwhereas Titus had given orders for the erection of three towers of fifty cubits high, that by setting men upon them at every bank, he might from thence drive those away who were upon the wall, it so happened that one of these towers fell down about midnight;and as its fall made a very great noise”.Here's another;Josephus" The priests and the Elders of the city send word to Pilate for help incase they “confiscate our property and put us to death and set our children adrift”Bible"But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad".I not only maintain that the Jesus of the gospels was alive and well during the fall of Jerusalem.That is right. He rose from the dead tree days after the crucifixion and is alive, and was during the fall of Jerusalem.
I didn't say he rose from the dead after three days, stop putting words into my mouth you deceitful turdflinger. And you are forgetting that those biblical verses that appear to replicate the Josephus verses are all supposed to have happened BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem AND the Crucifixion! I.E> The coincidental Josephus verses that I have highlighted above are supposed to have occurred some 40 years after the death of Jesus. Interesting too isn't it that concerning these coincidences that Josephus also mentions A Judas that was a good and trusted friend with Simon.
All these characters with the same biblical names, Judas, John, Simon, Caiaphas and Jesus all coincidentally appearing at the same time at the fall of Jerusalem some 40 years after the crucifixion and the supposed accession into " heaven" by Jesus.
There isn't a single mention of the fall of Jerusalem in the New Testament, or is there. Unless this John is the same John Josephus talks about.! " And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV)
Which in turn , would, in my opinion, mean that the "the kingdom of heaven" is a term used for the Jerusalem temple that is very much of this earth. That verse speaks volumes when it is realised that Jesus hadn't been crucified at this point. And there is no mention at all of a battle in a ' in the sky heaven ' that had been taken by force, is there.
I have maintained all along that Jesus survived that horrendous ritual of crucifixion, a dangerous drama acted & played out in reality for the benefit of the gullible and superstitious of the time simply to gain followers and support. (that is why his legs weren't broken).
And if we are talking the same biblical Jesus then it was he that was alive if not present at the fall of Jerusalem. I have maintained that stance from the day I joined this forum. I have also said many times that there is another story lying under the surface of these scriptures that the authors appear desperate to hide. I have also maintained that the New Testament is all about a power struggle. I also believe that John the Baptist, Simon (peter?)and Jesus were rivals. I have no solid proof of that, because again, it is all to do with how one chooses to read these ambiguous half stories that make up the nonsense that has come down to us as scripture.
for example; You,no doubt, will read the meeting down at the Jordan between John the Baptise and Jesus as showing John being subservient to Jesus (not fit to lick his sandals etc) . I read it as a confrontation between two family members (siblings) vying for authority over the other. This is a rivalry story that is repeated throughout the whole bible (not to mention all of ancient history) from the days of Cain killing Able and Jacob and Esau etc. And going by this repeated biblical pattern of sibling rivalry it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that John and Jesus were fathered by the same acting "Gabriel" and were not cousins but half brother.
I could go deeper into this, but none of this explains Jesus returning on a cloud after apparently being dead and stinking in his rich mans tomb and ascending to heaven, does it!
And neither would me showing why I believe Joseph of Arimathea and Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus are one and the same person.
Now I think that it is time for you to " Familiarize yourself with what [may] have actually happened."
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Do you think that asserting something enough makes it true?
I have asserted nothing. I have simply highlighted what the bible clearly shows what was supposed to happen according to Jesus and the bible, what didn't happen, and what the bible also says actually happened instead. Your problem is that there are so many contradictory half stories, and lies in the scripture that you have to invent a new story made up of your own opinions every time you are caught on the backfoot or - as Christians often do - have painted yourself into a corner .
So simply tell me what the word "secret" means in " koine Greek"The same as it means in English. In what sense are you applying it?
Yes, that is exactly what I thought.
But there are some cretins on this board will have us all believe different. This is what I mean about the likes of you being caught on the backfoot and painting yourselves into a theological corner trying to defend these unreliable, ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures not to mention the cruel nature of your god.
These white balls or torches of fire flying through the sky. The Romans lit the stones, causing fires in the city and temple.
He is describing the final stages of the siege of Jerusalem and its armaments. Balls of fire do not a returning Jesus on a cloud make!
This is not the return of the son of god coming on a cloud to make peace and unite his people. They were even more dived than ever . Especially when a Jew named Simon and another Jew named John decided to start butchering their own people and decimating the temple in an attempt to gain power and control of the city.
Josephus.
Galileanzealots led by someone whose name was John and a personal enemy of historian Flavius Josephus, a John who hadtaken over the temple, and along with a Simon had killed their own people and had “spilt the blood” ofGalileans inside of it. <<<READ THAT CAREFULLY, and then read what the Jesus of the gospels has to say. FlaviusJosephus The Wars Of The Jews) Or The History Of The Destruction OfJerusalem. Books V, VI and VII.
Bible
Andfrom the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heavensuffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV). Is this a coincidence?
Is the collapse of Siloam tower incident yet another coincidence?
Bible
"Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
Josephus.
“NOW,on the next night, a surprising disturbance fell upon the Romans; forwhereas Titus had given orders for the erection of three towers offifty cubits high, that by setting men upon them at every bank, hemight from thence drive those away who were upon the wall, it sohappened that oneof these towers fell down about midnight;and as its fall made a very great noise”.
Here's another;
Josephus
" Thepriests and the Elders of the city send word to Pilate for help incase they “confiscateour property and put us to death and set our children adrift”
Bible
"But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad".
I not only maintain that the Jesus of the gospels was alive and well during the fall of Jerusalem. I also have good reason to believe that the secret disciple of Jesus, the biblical character Joseph of Arimathea (who it was asked for the body of Jesus) is also Yosef ben Matityahu, aka Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.
While Josephus mentions what people described as happening in Jerusalem during the siege, He does not mention Jesus specifically as coming.
That is correct, yet here you are attempting to rewrite the works of Josephus by telling us what he meant just as you do with scripture.
You once said:
"Josephus describes it[Jesus' second coming] in much detail."#27. This was , according to you Josephus witnessing and or describing the second coming of Jesus as he promised he would.. Though you have backpaddled somewhat on that claim, telling us that Josephus " doesn't actual mention Jesus".
Let me tell you. Balls of fire , stones heated in fire and sulphur fired from a giant sling/catapult is not describing the son of god's return on a cloud. In fact, if we are to personify such a weapon and its missiles, wouldn't it be more aptly described as " Satan coming on a cloud"?
You are just full of BS.
The fall of Jerusalem was not started by the Romans, it was started by Jews, and two Jews in particular, John and Simon vying for power who Josephus described as "“Galileanbrigands” (zealots) with John being the greater culprit. He spilled blood in the temple and set it ablaze. And Rome let them get on with it for about 4-5 years before stepping in to finish off that particular siege.
And let me tell you further, Josephus does actually mention A Jesus being present. It appears that it was this Jesus that surrendered the vestment of the high priest to the Romans. All these biblical names - A Simon, A John, A Jesus and A Joseph and even A priest named Caiaphas just like the biblical Caiaphas, all present at the fall of the city of Jerusalem in AD 68-70. Can this all be coincidental? What are we to make of them and it all.
I have said. I have good reason to believe Jesus survived the ritualistic crucifixion played out so barbarically and was alive, if not present at the fall of Jerusalem.
Your boy didn't resurrect from the dead. He never did die. He didn't come disguised as a fire ball from a giant catapult or on a cloud smoke.
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@janesix
It's just part of life.
Remove "god" and that is the reality.
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@ebuc
Attempting rational, logical common sense discourse with the irrational, illogical, lack of common sense believers is a bit { a lot } like attempting to have rational, conversation with a drunk, at least with some issues.
A+1
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@secularmerlin
especially if you believe in some god(s) that can be defined as both all powerful and also loves us all how do you resolve the problem of suffering?
Interesting question. I can't see many tripping over themselves to defend god and his actions, to be honest.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7 King James Version.
At least "god" can throw his hands up and admit to creating all things , including suffering and those things that cause suffering.
I await the cries of "CONTEXT"!!! and of being reminded that one simply cannot understand gods admission of guilt unless one is a "student of ancient Greek" .
I fear this thread will die a death very quickly.
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Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, [1] on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.Something tells me that you did not read a single thing I wrote,Oh but I did. And I have said that offering more unreliable " cherry picked" verses from the same unreliable source does not and will not serve as any type of proof.Cherry-picked?
Yep. Cherry picked. You think that by flooding my thread with cherry picked verses that you believe somehow prove your point that Jesus returned to Earth in one form or another. THEY DON'T!
Everything promised about or by Jesus failed to come to fruition. He didn't return after the ascension, no one - including Flavus Josephus - seen him arrive on a cloud. He failed to unite the lost sheep of Israel and free them from the Roman yoke and he didn't make peace on Earth.
This is how it is supposed to happen >> Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ did not happen!
Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ did not happen!
This was supposed to happen>>>
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”:Luke1:26-38
This is what happened instead >>> "Jesus was taken to a place called Golgotha – which means ‘The place of the skull’ - for his crucifixion" Mark 15: 21–41
So you see. The only thing Jesus inherited was two pieces of wood, three nails and a view overlooking the Kidron Valley. This is far from a throne of any description isn’t it? Especially the “great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold.” of King David, as described here > > > 1Kings 10:18
Stephen asked: Tell me. what does the English word " "secret" mean or defined as in " koine Greek" ?Words in different languages have equivalencies, or else communication between two different languages would not happen. Words are symbols that represent the thing discussed. The point I was making is that translating does not lose word equivalencies because it goes from one language to another, not a multitude of languages. It goes from koine Greek to Latin, from koine Greek to German, from koine Greek to English, not from koine Greek to Latin, to German, to English.
Ok. In English the word - secret - is defined and means ;
(1) something that is kept or meant to be kept unknown or unseen by others.
(2)not known or seen or not meant to be known or seen by others.
So simply tell me what the word "secret" means in " koine Greek"?
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@PGA2.0
Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, [1] on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.Something tells me that you did not read a single thing I wrote,
Oh but I did. And I have said that offering more unreliable " cherry picked" verses from the same unreliable source does not and will not serve as any type of proof.
nor examined the proofs I offered.
You offer not a single iota of proof.
Why do you keep reading into Jesus' Second Coming as a physical return?
That is how it is written, numerously. Or are you now attempting to rewrite scripture. Are you telling us that Jesus is in fact not going to return physically. Or has returned but not physically?
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
You're brushing off everything I have said, ignoring it because you have nothing but assertions.
I have asserted nothing. I have added nothing to what the scripture actually states where-as, you are attempting to do just that.. You are now at the -making it up as you go along -stage.
There are umpteen passages that back what I have said.
Nope. But there are passages that suggest a physical, bodily return that is observable to every single being on the planet. A return to establish "his kingdom on earth". Or has the words;
"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in. earth, as it is in heaven", escaped you?
And I personally think you go against a wealth of information that is contrary to your belief.
What belief? The belief that Jesus failed to return?
Your bias is noted and evident.
My difference of opinion, is what you mean.
Every English translation worth its weight relies on the koine Greek in which the NT authors wrote. You seem to think that we translate from language to language. That is not true.
It is you and your ilk that pull the Greek card at every stumbling block, I am quite happy reading these scriptures in English. Tell me. what does the English word " "secret" mean or defined as in " koine Greek" ?
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@BrotherDThomas
Have you ever wondered why DEBATEART Religion Forum attracts so many Bible inept, and runaway from same, pseudo-christians like PGA2.0, fauxlaw, et al?
Recently I have , Brother. I fear that many are too ill equipped for these religion forums that throw at them biblical questions and anomalies that they haven't been taught and educated enough to counter . And we all know the reason for that too.
And they are certainly not bible savvy enough to hold a decent conversation concerning the scriptures without getting high and mighty and holier than thou, all over the place.
I came to realise long ago that is all they are good for is preaching and "passing on" what it is they have been taught about these anomalous, contradictory, half stories that go to make up the scriptures as was confessed once by non other than a serving Pastor and Chaplin who is a member here.
Do you remember this confession the Reverend Tradesecret , Brother>>
#20"I in most parts are merely passing on the teaching of what i havereceived. I do not have an agenda. I really don't."<< this from one of those " fools " that you refer to. Tell me, Brother, how is it that a serving Pastor and Chaplin can forget his god given agenda of the Great Commission!? How can he say , " I have no agenda"? It appears to me that this particular clergy man wanted to wash his hands of the whole affair with that statement. It came across to me as as "don't shot the messenger", get out.
Its like this specific forum has a flashing neon bright sign out front that says: "Welcome ALL Bible inept and runaway pseudo-christians to our Religion Forum, praise Jesus!"
Maybe they were sent here by god to receive proper learning from those that do know these scriptures far better than themselves.
I do miss the ever so Bible inept and #1 king of the "non sequiturs" response posts to specific topics, poor ol' ethang5, where responding to him was like shooting fish in a barrel!
I didn't notice , Brother. Has he not been around lately?
Also, lest we forget the ever so dumbfounded of the Bible Tradesecret, where it seems he/she/unknown is taking a lot of time off to heal from the Bible wounds that we easily inflicted upon him/her/unknown!
Is he missing too? Maybe it has to do with many of those wounds being self inflicted for the best part, caused by his own bible ignorance, Brother. He shot himself in both feet so often he probably needs time to heal.
Sad indeed. :(
I don't find it sad at all, Brother. They are all cowards that resort to double standards, hypocrisy, rewriting scripture and putting words into the mouths of biblical characters, not to mention outright lying , when stuck for replies and answers.
I must confess, I am still surprised even today that the bible ignorant still today resort to the of use that old favourite theological card "the ancient Greek language". It just smacks of desperation every time its played.
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@n8nrgmi
a miracle is when something occurs that is impossible according to science
Ok. So where does a god come into that.? Nature maybe full of "miracles" for want of a better word.
Is it a "miracle" when a woman wakes from a coma speaking and other accent or language? Because there is no mention of the doctors or the woman claiming it to be miraculous.
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@PGA2.0
Not a single thing that you have posted goes anywhere in showing that Jesus returned from the dead and appeared to his apostles or anyone, on a cloud or anything resembling as such after the accession.
Falvius Josephus mentions no raising from the dead of Jesus called the Christ and making a show on a cloud and sitting anywhere , either.
I have said in another thread of mine that I personally believe Jesus survived the cross and went on to live at least another 40 years and was probably alive, if not present at the time of the fall of Jerusalem. But I have no proof of that.
But YOU! In typical fashion of the theist caught on the backfoot , you have ignored what these scriptures actually state.
LOOK>> “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.
Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.
Peter was challenged wasn't he? But he had no explanation for the no show did he,? So instead just like you he swerved the problem with bullshit : lets see what they said and Peter's weasley reply.
They asked;
“Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”2Peter 3:4
Yet even allowing for all those Jews alive at the time of the promise and living another hundred + years, Jesus simply failed to show and keep his promise. They didn't ask because he had returned, did they you fool. They asked because he hadn't! And everything went on the same.
What was Peter's BS response to them:
8 " But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day".
Odd it is that Jesus forgot to mention this thousand years when he promised the generation living at the time of the promise.
Odd then isn't it that Jesus forgot to mention they wouldn't pass away because they would all live for another thousand years before they all witnessed his return.
No matter how many verses you post here, trying to tell us that Jesus did return , they won't alter what the scriptures actually state and only go further to shown your BS is full of holes.
And this is all before we even get on to what all this is supposed to mean in the "ancient Greek language" that you Christians always rely on for another BS excuse for the scriptures failings.
Christians are too dumb to realise that every time they pull out the Greek card, that they render the whole of the Christian bible written in English obsolete and useless as any kind of theological authority.
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@zedvictor4
And those that wish to believe in theistically inspired miracles, inevitably will.And those that are less likely to be influenced by theistic persuasion, probably won't.Same old, same old.
In a nutshell
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@PGA2.0
Even at his trial he told the priests and the council :“you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“” Matthew26: 63, 64. And the no show hadn’t gone nu-noticed by the people either: 2Peter 3:4 “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”Yet even allowing for all those Jews alive at the time of the promise and living another hundred + years, Jesus simply failed to show and keep his promise.The High Priest definitely understood that the Son of Man was seated at the right hand of the Father during the judgment in AD 70. Josephus describes it in much detail.
Nice. Now let us see what you are claiming.
Remember Peter had no answer for them did he?
I recommend you read it to familiarize yourself with what actually happened.
I have. As I have the works of Josephus.
Does a single one of those he made the promise to mention his return "coming on a cloud"? It will be interesting to hear what Christians have to say about this abysmal damp squib of a failure to keep a promise, his promise.Yes.
Repeating the biblical verses does not amount to proof that Jesus returned from the dead: on a cloud or a skateboard.
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@ RationalMadman,
You have quite simply contributed jack shit to this actual thread's conversation
I wouldn't agree. I explained the flaw in your question, where as you contributed absolutely nothing of your own on your own thread when asked for simply clarity.
and you read me asking you to leave me alone as an invitation to keep badgering me
I haven't read that at all, but I will leave your thread now you have asked me to.
Just remember not to post on my threads or direct any of your questions directly to me on your own threads from this point on. I have a right to respond if you do so.
Bye now.
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@ RationalMadman,
That is definitely one way to read what you wrote,
Well such in the nature of the internet, you can read into it whatever you choose to. As you have done so concerning one single line of Revelation.
I am not the one that has read Revelation as suggesting god was calling himself an "Alpha male" or an "Omega male" or Satan "being the other end", when it describes nothing of the sort.
Or have you forgotten your calamity of a question>>
How can God be both an alpha male and omega male?I don't understand what he means by that statement. Omega males are basically the very rebellious type who refuse to bow down before the Alpha male, in an overt manner that can at times get them punished, depending on personality clashes and agendas.Scar in Lion King was a Sigma male while Mufasa was an obvious Alpha. However, a good example of what an Omega Male is, is actually Pumbaa (Timon is more of a beta male). If God is both the rebellious and the man in charge is it true to say God may be Satan himself?
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@ RationalMadman,
You do realise saying 'there is nothing new in history' could mean many things, right?
I didn't say there is nothing new in history. Go back and read what it is I actually wrote.
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@BrotherDThomas
how much time regarding Jesus' return in using biblical axioms like "who is to come quickly, and soon, the time is near" do we just say, He's just not coming, period! Thus far, it's been 2000 years plus, where Jesus' return was supposed to be within the time period of Jesus upon earth! (Mark 30: 25-35).
All correct as usual Brother. I did a thread on this very point not too long ago, titled, No Show here >. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5599-no-show
Maybe the words " "who is to come quickly, and soon, the time is near" actual mean something else entirely, in ancient Greek? maybe it means - ` I have no intention of returning to this shithole "y'all" call home, so don't wait up you clowns'?
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