How is oromagi undefeated?

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Alec
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The person has I think 56 wins and no ties or losses.  How did this happen?
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@Alec
@oromagi
Get good


Instead of being greedy with a hint of jealousy
Try to go and defeat oromagi
Instead of speaking foul in what they see
Try to go and defeat oromagi

Alec
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@Vader
I'm not jealous of Oromagi.  I thought it was impressive to win 56 consecutive times.
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@Alec
How did this happen?
<br>

His arguments aren't simple streams of consciousness where he writes down the first thing that pops into his head without bothering to spend any time actually thinking about the meaning of what he is actually saying.
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@Alec
Too much spare time.
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@Alec
The person has I think 56 wins and no ties or losses.  How did this happen?

Honestly, I am as surprised as anybody.  I don't have any kind of debate background.  I took a great course in college call "Language, Logic, and Persuasion for Writers" which represents 100% of my studies in logic or philosophy.  I did 70 or so debates on DDO which was very educational re: online debates.  I'm sure it is pretty evident that I'm no smarter or better educated than the average debater on this site.

RatMan's theory is "[I] got [my] wins by semantic and BoP abuse entirely," which I think is a bit of an overstatement.  Dr.Franklin's theory is that there is a secret liberal conspiracy between top voters, which is not true since there is no vote specific communication or agreement between us but I do think that there are certain liberal or conservative positions/topics that make me more likely to vote and that my liberal bias probably informs that vote even when I try hard to keep an open mind about the better argument.   Assuming others do the same, there is some element of truth to Dr.Franklin's complaint.  Dr.Franklin's previous theory was just that I am a "tryhard" and I think that is probably closer to the truth.  If I can't be smarter than the competition, perhaps I can simply outwork them.  Anyway, here's my thinking  about winning DART debates:

  • The number one factor is forfeits.  In 57 debates I have never forfeited once- a characteristic largely shared by winning debaters.  Any regular voter on this site will confirm that the majority of wins on this site aren't won so much as lost by forfeitures.
  • Before accepting a debate, study your opponent's record (on DART and DDO).  If the debater
    • Demonstrates debate experience
    • Makes arguments in a highly organized or persuasive fashion
    • seems particularly knowledgeable about the topic, or
    • never forfeits
              then don't accept those debates.
  • Arguments are less than 50% of the possible voter points awarded.  You can actually outargue your opponent every time and still have a losing record (look at Virtuoso's debates for an example of this).
    • Make a point of being nicer to your opponent than your opponent is to you (if only the forums followed this rule).  If your opponent goes low, do not retaliate.   Wait until the final round and then coolly request a point.
    • Make a point of having more sources than your opponent.  Wikipedia is the finest artifact the internet has ever produced, use Wikipedia liberally for the conventional wisdom on any topic.  ONLY use sources that rate very high or high on https://mediabiasfactcheck.com  Peer reviewed scholarship typically offers the best evidence and most sophisticated thinking on any point.  I spend a totally unreasonable amount of research time trying to understand technical papers way over my head.
      • Using an opponent's sources against her is a major advantage.  Scour every opposing source for arguments that support your case.
    • I'm actually pretty bad at re-reading my arguments for spelling and grammar.  The more I re-read my stuff, the less confident I become in my choices and I get lost in (mostly counter-productive) rewrites,  but my first draft grammar is pretty good and spellchecker gets the majority of the misspellings.  Nevertheless, I'd recommend that you re-read your arguments for legibility and comprehension.  Your argument is useless if voters can't read it- make a point of demonstrating better spelling and grammar than  your opponent.
      • If there are serious grammatical or spelling errors in the title, take the debate.
  • Read and use the DART and DDO debate guides and advice.  I like Ragnar's debate style best so I go back to his guide most often. 
  • If you are making a debate, always define terms, concepts and BoP to your advantage.  This is the instigator's main advantage.  A contender's main advantages are opponent selection and the last word- which far outweighs the instigator's advantage.  The best way to counter this advantage is to set terms that no superior debater would accept or at least terms that must be objected to, cutting into the opponent's word count.
    • I suspect logicae would object to this tactic based on a recent debate definition: "BOTH sides have a burden to prove their positions. (I have noticed this kind of burden swinging in far too many debates. It is a tactic to merely win a debate, not to find truth.)"  As a voter, I have awarded many wins to debaters who I knew were advocating wrong and even dishonest positions based on the strength of the argument.  The pursuit of truth is always admirable but offers little advantage in winning debates.
      • Personally, I think the notion of dual burdens is bullshit.  Debates were traditionally practice for law and politics.  In law and politics, the question is always binary- pass/fail, guilty/ not guilty.  Dual burdens suggests that the instigator must prove one thesis and the contender must develop a second, opposing thesis and prove that which creates four possible outcomes-
        • /A proven B unproven/,
        • /A unproven B proven/,
        • /A proven B proven/,
        • /A unproven B unproven/. 
      • Many theses don't have a true opposite or have multiple true opposites.  Furthermore, the opposing thesis is almost never explicitly stated.  The contender is left proving some ill-defined negation.  Dual burdens makes for fuzzy, unfocused debates with much cloudier outcomes.  It's like saying the state must prove the defendant guilty and also the defendant must prove himself innocent. 
    • A good debater always suggests that the other guy has the entire burden of proof while also arguing as if the burden is entirely hers to prove.
    • Any debater who instigates a debate but then fails to set terms in the long description or R1 has handed the contender all of the main advantages.  Look for debaters who operate this way and exploit those advantages.
  • Try hard to be interesting for readers.  Unfortunately, most people will never read your debate but you can make a friend of the few who do by trying to write appealing, creative arguments.  Try hard to be original- I try to list all the arguments I can think of before I start researching other people's arguments.  Typically, other people's arguments are better informed than mine but an original argument supported by the facts is more satisfying to write and forces the opponent to think of an original defense.
  • Depending on the debate, it usually helps to give voters a concise reason for voting for you at the end of the debate.  Voters are required to defend their votes so giving them a plausible reason or two they can cite or paraphrase while voting for you makes their job easier and their vote that much more likely.




23 days later

Dr.Franklin
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oro is good

1.He picks lower debators
2.He took a language class so he is a God at semantics

RationalMadman
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The hippopotomagi has mastered how to clamp down on either semantic exploitation or 'this is just much more popular than your opinion' dynamic to make the opponent always appear to never have met their burden of proof.

He picks his battles cautiously but once in, you are not getting out of his all-encompassing engulfment.
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@RationalMadman
@oromagi
@Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's theory is that there is a secret liberal conspiracy between top voters, which is not true since there is no vote specific communication or agreement between us
How do we know this? Anyway, there doesn't need to be vote specific communication or agreement between you. All that is needed is a loose group of mods and old members who are activist liberals and it just happens that way spontaneously. The same could happen with conservatives, except conservatives are not often activists.

...but I do think that there are certain liberal or conservative positions/topics that make me more likely to vote and that my liberal bias probably informs that vote even when I try hard to keep an open mind about the better argument.
Thank you. That was refreshingly honest.

Assuming others do the same, there is some element of truth to Dr.Franklin's complaint.  
Doc is right. I just wish other liberals would see the inherent bias in the system. It is killing member participation in debates. Members are even reluctant to vote in debates.

But right now the status quo benefits the powers that be, so nothing changes, and the clique keeps wrapping up the wins and pooh-pooling attacks on the fake system as a "conspiracy theory".
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@ethang5
my "conspiracy theory" is correct, the liberal voters are everywhere, it's not a secret society

70 days later

Christen
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One thing to mention is that oromagi does tend to stick to low-hanging fruit. In other words, many of oromagi's debates are about topics that his opponent knows little about, are against opponent's who are not good debaters, or end in the opponent simply forfeiting rounds or giving up, so oromagi gets free wins the majority of the time.

Examples of this include but are not limited to:


https://www.debateart.com/debates/1277/gun-bans-are-stupid where there were only 3 rounds, and both sides goofed around but oromagi stepped it up, followed by another round being forfeited

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1242/animal-cloning where the entire debate was forfeited by the opponent, followed by this debate below


https://www.debateart.com/debates/542/on-balance-the-potential-benefits-of-autonomous-vehicles-outweigh-the-potential-harms ramshutu gave an awkward rfd and awarded most of the points to oromagi, without anyone else having a say

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1230/the-moon-is-designed more rounds forfeited by oromagi's opponent

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1195/life-is-created-by-god oromagi won this one merely because pro had to prove that god exists and creates life, which is too difficult for anyone to prove at the moment

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1187/being-vegan-is-a-crime oromagi won because being vegan has never been a crime as far as i'm aware

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1075/antifa-is-equivalent-to-the-kkk the claim that antifa was equivalent to the kkk turned out to be far too strong and bold for the debater to substantiate with proof



https://www.debateart.com/debates/1289/god-created-dna opponent had poor grammar and argued poorly so it was easy for oromagi to refute them


https://www.debateart.com/debates/1268/god-measured-everything-out because opponent relied too heavily on pure anecdotal evidence instead of studies or data


https://www.debateart.com/debates/1534/massachusetts-is-a-greater-state-than-california-as-of-now because ragnar couldn't figure out who to side with so ragnar just ended up siding with oromagi on a hunch


https://www.debateart.com/debates/1533/the-july-25-trump-zelensky-phone-call-is-clear-cut-collusion oromagi only one this one because the voters "felt like" oromagi was right


https://www.debateart.com/debates/1904/think-of-a-good-title-for-the-typical-donald-trump-road-show the debate title made little to no sense so oromagi won this one

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1907/i-have-a-question-for-debaters-obsessed-with-victory another troll debate where the opponent forfeited a round and then made a 1-sentence argument in the other


https://www.debateart.com/debates/1890/if-you-want-constructive-information-on-the-coronavirus-listen-to-andrew-cuomo this debate was confusing since the title was about cuomo while the description was about Donald Trump and oromagi won through the confusion


https://www.debateart.com/debates/1877/i-believe-that-donald-trump-is-a-re-incarnation-of-adolph-hitler opponent stated a belief instead of actually arguing that point properly

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1902/devin-nunes another stupid senseless debate which would lead to a stupid senseless outcome of oromagi winning



https://www.debateart.com/debates/1841/thbt-braveheart-defames-robert-the-bruce this one was about a film, which I would have to watch before judging

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1816/death-penalty-solely-for-murder opponent got stopped from debating by parents



https://www.debateart.com/debates/1752/america-isn-t-a-sexist-misogynist-society oromagi's opponent set the bar too high and made it too hard to prove their own point

https://www.debateart.com/debates/1472/antarctica-aliens the opponent couldn't properly prove aliens



I believe I've only covered half oromagi's debates so far, but you guys get the idea.
User_2006
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@Christen

Hey, don't call me that! I tried, at least. 

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@Christen
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1195/life-is-created-by-god oromagi won this one merely because pro had to prove that god exists and creates life, which is too difficult for anyone to prove at the moment
I took the debate at a wrong time and personally had to strong of a claim. With what's going on now, there could be more of a case
fauxlaw
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Having lost one debate which I initiated to Oromagi, I found his explanation above to be valid points that are an accurate self-description. It doesn't matter that he reveals his technique because it is of no aid or advantage to the competitor. This does not mean he cannot lose, it just means you'd best bring your best game, if you have one. I have also reviewed other debates he has engaged for voting and I find the tactics he describes as a fair self-description. His arguments are laser focused and his rebuttals go to tyhe core of your arguments. If I described Oromagi in one word, I would say "relentless."There's no magic, no conspiracy, and no hanky-panky with powers that be.
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@fauxlaw
Thanks, fauxlaw.  I consider that high praise. 
oromagi
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@Vader
I agree although I still think antifa is 90% FOX News histrionics and 10% Berkeley lesbian teenagers from 3 years ago

oromagi
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@User_2006
I agree.  Christen shouldn’t underestimate the intimidation factor of being new to the site and having the top guy jump your debate- I thought User aquitted himself well
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@oromagi
You're welcome. Well deserved. [don't let it go to your head. I think you will not.]
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@Vader
I took the debate at a wrong time and personally had to strong of a claim. With what's going on now, there could be more of a case
The one who said God exists and created the world had more burden of proof. There, there is less for Oro to prove in order to meet his burden of proof.

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@Christen
I accept the crap debates argument although none of us are gonna make 100 debates unless we pick up the gimmes when they present themselves.  Even then, type1/sparrow proved to he could play the minefield with his game of thrones and smarter chimps debates. I think you are too dismissive of some these debates. Keep in mind RM was the top debater and I was the newbie when we did that autonomous vehicle debate and he made me WORK.  He sort of threaded a few good arguments with a few throwaways and forced me to totally lay out his arguments so I could refute. I never should have accepted that Ali/Holyfield debate because he had a real perspective and I was reduced to quoting sports illustrated.  I really lucked out that he had so many debates going that pulled out. I am fortunate that  fauxlaw was new to the site when we debated IF and you might notice I haven’t taken him on since tho he has offered several times. I choose debates as much by topic as person but as I’ve said before the only way I maintain my streak is by knowing my betters and studiously avoiding them
Athias
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@Alec
@oromagi
@Christen
While a record without blemish is impressive, I do believe that there are lessons to be learned from failure and "imperfection." I somewhat agree with Christen that many, if not most of oromagi's opponents have been underwhelming, but that is by no means oromagi's fault. (Many of my "wins," for example, were from underwhelming opponents as well.) If anything, oromagi deserves credit for taking his debates seriously regardless of whom he debates. Not to mention, he always presents his arguments cogently. The debate system however does suffer from the very voting system itself. A vote in favor of an argument neither validates nor informs its credibility. While I do laud the site's effort in creating a standard, the aforementioned is inescapable. Only two opponents worthy of a worthwhile debate can create an impeccable logical standard through their example.

While perusing your debate history, there are several interesting debates (e.g. "Catholicism isn't true Christianity," "Adolf Hitler was Left-Wing," "America Isn't A Sexist/Misogynist Society," etc.) which may have gone another way, had you had a more competent opponent. What do you say, oromagi? Want to learn a lesson?
PressF4Respect
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@oromagi
Wasn't noob sniping generally frowned upon in DDO?
oromagi
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The debate system however does suffer from the very voting system itself. A vote in favor of an argument neither validates nor informs its credibility
Nor should it.  We are practicing at debate, not reinforcing our own personal bias.  If I had to vote by validity alone I'd often vote against my own arguments. As I say above, we don't even have to win the argument to win the debate under the  present system.  I'd like to see a vote system that rewards cogent formatting and excellence in composition.  I'd also like to see a degree of difficulty modifier.

I'd point out that AKmath is a very smart debater who just doesn't seem to care much about completion.  Mharman has many excellent debates on DDO so I'm lucky he gave up when he did.   

I am also well aware of your excellence as a debater so in principle I ought not to consider a debate vs. you without some major advantage in argument- an advantage which I doubt you'd accept.  In practice, however, talented debaters are more fun to fight.  I like my position on all three of the debates you mention although my arguments could use some improvement (for which I'm sure you'd provide motivation).  My mom died last week and I have a few busy weeks of arrangements and packing up her things etc. ahead  but let's try to find something to debate in July.

I value the respect you offered, thanks for it.












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@PressF4Respect
nope.  bsh, ragnar, imabench, etc had no problem with shredding me to pieces in my early day on that site.  On this site, if  I only debated non-noobs I wouldn't get to 100 debates for decades.
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--> @oromagi
Wasn't noob sniping generally frowned upon in DDO?

also, was anything ever generally frowned upon on DDO?  One could post instructions for making a homemade atomic detonator on that site and still be unlikely to merit a comment.
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@oromagi
Okay, but do you think noob sniping is ok, morally?
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@PressF4Respect
Okay, but do you think noob sniping is ok, morally?
Well,  yes.  The most relevant framework is the DebateArt.com Code of Conduct which places no restrictions on debates by relative experience.  I can't think of any overarching moral principle that might prohibit such engagement or over-ride the CoC.

Lets examine the question via the four principles

AUTONOMY
Does accepting a debate from a newbie constitute undue coercion or pressure?  No.  In most cases, the new member has initiated the debate and had the chance to set the rules of engagement.  I try hard to follow the initiators rules even if I think those rules are unwarranted.  Likewise, if I initiate the debate, I define my expectations and  any acceptance of the debate should include acceptance of those terms.
BENEFIT
Beyond the obvious educational benefits, I think early engagement between experienced and inexperienced debaters sets a higher level of expectation for effort and quality argument here than on other sites.  Obviously, there's no enforcement of this dynamic- just a gentle promotion of the idea that if you're just going to create debates to fuck around, users like RM and myself will work to extract personal benefit while giving a slacker or troll as little satisfaction as possible.
MALEFICENCE
Considering that the entire enterprise is practice & exercise, I see little chance for real harm.  All practice, all exercise in any skill set is generally beneficial
JUSTICE
Are the costs and benefits distributed equally?  In the long term, yes.  Nobody has an equal right to win here nor should they.  Yes, more experience and greater effort provide an advantage  in debate and a newbie might not have the same appreciation for those advantages but that appreciation is usually born out of defeat and seldom gained by an easy win.  Besides, there is always the balancing benefit of the underdog effect and the disadvantage that familiarity breeds contempt for long time players.

In most competitions, we have little moral problem with matching rookies vs. veterans.  A good argument might be made for making baseball like minor leagues but in a such a hypothetical, this minor league debater would never have made it to the higher rungs.

I take it that you think there is some moral dilemma here.  Care to make that case?

F


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@oromagi
The most relevant framework is the DebateArt.com Code of Conduct which places no restrictions on debates by relative experience.  I can't think of any overarching moral principle that might prohibit such engagement or over-ride the CoC.
Are you saying that because noob sniping isn't expressly stated as immoral in the CoC (or any other overarching principle that would supersede the CoC), it shouldn't be considered immoral? If that's the case, then you've just gotten beheaded by Hume's Guillotine.

Does accepting a debate from a newbie constitute undue coercion or pressure?  No.  In most cases, the new member has initiated the debate and had the chance to set the rules of engagement.  I try hard to follow the initiators rules even if I think those rules are unwarranted.  Likewise, if I initiate the debate, I define my expectations and  any acceptance of the debate should include acceptance of those terms.
Here's the problem. Many newbies don't know how to properly define expectations, rules, and definitions in a way that closes any potential loopholes (which predatory debaters [not naming names here] would be more than happy to exploit).

Beyond the obvious educational benefits, I think early engagement between experienced and inexperienced debaters sets a higher level of expectation for effort and quality argument here than on other sites. 
It can also set a bad precedent for those on the receiving end of this, as they could possibly develop the psyche that in order to win, they must target those lower than them and squish them like bugs in their arguments. They could go on to base their debate strategy entirely around hunting for noobs instead of debating those who can actually provide a good argument. This wouldn't benefit the debater at all. Rather, crushing lowlier debaters would only inflate their ego and give them a sense of false intellect. I don't doubt the educational benefits and high expectations that it can provide, but we cannot ignore the potential downsides that noob sniping could incur.

Obviously, there's no enforcement of this dynamic- just a gentle promotion of the idea that if you're just going to create debates to fuck around, users like RM and myself will work to extract personal benefit while giving a slacker or troll as little satisfaction as possible.
But new debaters often aren't here to "create debates to fuck around". They often genuinely do not know how to cover all of their bases and would feel intimidated by having a user such as RM or yourself. Using lofty arguments and flexing your intellectual might doesn't benefit them in the slightest, and extracting personal benefit from that is selfish by definition. 

Considering that the entire enterprise is practice & exercise, I see little chance for real harm.  All practice, all exercise in any skill set is generally beneficial
There is a chance for real harm. If someone created debates just to have them noob sniped, then they would begin to wonder what the point of creating a debate is. That could turn them away from DART, and potentially away from debating as a whole. In fact, this was explicitly listed as a concern by the DDO Wiki.

Are the costs and benefits distributed equally?  In the long term, yes.  Nobody has an equal right to win here nor should they.  Yes, more experience and greater effort provide an advantage  in debate and a newbie might not have the same appreciation for those advantages but that appreciation is usually born out of defeat and seldom gained by an easy win.
I agree that winning is the product of greater effort if the person exerting that effort knows how to do so properly, which, being new to the site, you wouldn't expect them to do. This also assumes that the debates would be constructive and the noob would gain actual feedback from it, which isn't always the case.

Besides, there is always the balancing benefit of the underdog effect and the disadvantage that familiarity breeds contempt for long time players.
Does this mitigate the advantage of actually knowing how to properly debate online? No.

In most competitions, we have little moral problem with matching rookies vs. veterans.  A good argument might be made for making baseball like minor leagues but in a such a hypothetical, this minor league debater would never have made it to the higher rungs.
There is also a very good case for not pitting a beer league hockey team against an NHL one. 

I take it that you think there is some moral dilemma here.  Care to make that case?
I already have ;)

F

Athias
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@oromagi
Nor should it.  We are practicing at debate, not reinforcing our own personal bias.  If I had to vote by validity alone I'd often vote against my own arguments. As I say above, we don't even have to win the argument to win the debate under the  present system.  I'd like to see a vote system that rewards cogent formatting and excellence in composition.  I'd also like to see a degree of difficulty modifier.

I'd point out that AKmath is a very smart debater who just doesn't seem to care much about completion.  Mharman has many excellent debates on DDO so I'm lucky he gave up when he did.   

I am also well aware of your excellence as a debater so in principle I ought not to consider a debate vs. you without some major advantage in argument- an advantage which I doubt you'd accept.  In practice, however, talented debaters are more fun to fight.  I like my position on all three of the debates you mention although my arguments could use some improvement (for which I'm sure you'd provide motivation).  My mom died last week and I have a few busy weeks of arrangements and packing up her things etc. ahead  but let's try to find something to debate in July.

I value the respect you offered, thanks for it.
My condolences. Of course, take your time.

User_2006
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@oromagi
So, one reason my ranking was below 1500 was that I debate with good debaters like Fauxlaw and RM too much?