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@AdaptableRatman
Can you please give a title to the debate?
I'm not a mod.
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@Greyparrot
If you flood America with a culture that sees liberty as a threat instead of a gift
So you feel threatened by the prospect of giving liberty to those people?
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@Greyparrot
Was never in the constitution.
There were protections for the slave trade. Also every amendment eliminates the right of states to decide that thing.
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@Greyparrot
eliminating constitutional rights, not adding more
Rights can be eliminated through an amendment. Like the right to drink alcohol or the right not to have income taxed.
Not a single right has been written out of the constitution by Americans.
The right to own slaves.
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Anyway I don't think this catfighting is productive, so I'm just gonna finish up another round of reads and post them.
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@WyIted
We don't "know" that anyone besides Mharman is innocent. When you give 100% odds of something, it's true like less than half the time.
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@WyIted
If you are town that makes the scum pool precisely pie, earth and mikal
You are in the scum pool. Mikal has barely been online, so his odds of being scum are rand.
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@Greyparrot
The Constitution was never meant to protect ideologies that openly reject the Constitution itself.
The constitution has a process for amending it, so yes it was. Every amendment was a rejection of the previous version.
Does everyone on the planet deserve free speech no matter what?
As long as they aren't directly inciting violence, threatening someone, or violating privacy rights. They can have terrible ideas, but you need to let people advocate for changing the laws in a democracy. Otherwise what's the point of even having a process to change laws?
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@WyIted
How would my play have any impact on what happens after I die?
"You" plural. Why should I die because other players might play badly?
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@WyIted
Also do you think whiteflame is going to make a microbiology game without a doctor? I mean, come on.
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@WyIted
You have to remember that if this is true and either me or Casey due than the rest of town will probably buy whatever bullshit you spew and this lose the game
So I should die because you might play badly?
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@Greyparrot
Only within a John Lockean culture can that idea exist.
What's wrong with a John Lockean culture?
I want to reserve rights for a culture that preserves those rights.
Should anyone who disagrees with you on which rights ought to be preserved be censored or deported? No one is going to be in alignment with you all the time. Also, restricting speech and Lockean rights is already failing to preserve the culture you're describing. Locke is quoted in the Declaration of Independence.
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@Casey_Risk
Anyone else getting the vibe that Savant and Mharman are a team?
WyIted literally just proposed that lol. But four things to keep in mind.
1) If you're right, the game is basically solved, and you don't need to lynch either of us today.
2) If you're wrong, killing either of us early severely weakens the town.
3) If any investigative roles exist, they can one of us tonight and significantly reduce the risk to town.
4) Because of (1) and (3), if we were a team, Mharman and I would be stupid to link ourselves early on this far from MYLO. It would be inviting people to consider us a potential pairing and giving them plenty of time to investigate or decide to lynch one of us. WIFOM doesn't work this far from MYLO with the possibility of investigative roles.
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@Greyparrot
If it's an inalienable right, you don't grant it.It's objectively not
Are any rights inalienable? You strike me as generally libertarian, so surely you believe there are some rights that exist without a government granting them.
Because then the country is gone. Replaced by a culture that grants no rights. Suicide pact.
So you want to limit speech but also deport other people for wanting to limit speech?
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@Greyparrot
What's the point in granting free speech to a culture that wants to ban free speech?
Does free speech include the right to oppose free speech? If not, why is that an exception?
granting free speech
If it's an inalienable right, you don't grant it.
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@WyIted
If you're wrong, town loses the doc ability. At least wait a few day phases and make the scum spend a kill to get rid of me. And if they don't and you lynch me, well at least the doctor role still works for a few night phases.
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@WyIted
WTF does "for everyone" mean. Like is there multiple doctors?
WF refused to answer.
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@WyIted
"Doctor" is in quotes, pretty sure it doesn't apply to other protective roles.
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@WyIted
WTF does "for everyone" mean. Like is there multiple doctors?
I have no idea, it doesn't elaborate. But I will ask.
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@Casey_Risk
This makes no sense. You already claimed your role, just full claim.
It makes sense because Mharman is a town lock, anything he says is just helping scum.
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@WyIted
Does your role specifically mention a doctor?
It says the "Doctor" role will stop functioning for everyone.
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@WyIted
I think we need to clear savant first. For mharman to be scum than savant has to be scum but if mharman is town than it means savant can be scum. If all possible worlds it is now more likely savant is scum than mharmanUnvote VTL savant
If I die Mharman can't heal anyone.
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@Greyparrot
You drop all contention?
I thought the contention was implied. Are inalienable rights dependent on cultural beliefs? I mean, if free speech is based on what opinions you have then it's not really free speech.
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@WyIted
What explains the scum behavior then?
Behavior isn't 100% predictable. But Mharman is mechanically confirmed.
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@Mharman
@WyIted
I'm fine getting a full claim from WyIted
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Mharman is now a town lock. Just going to put him at 100% odds of being town and do calculations for everyone else.
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@Greyparrot
Citizenship should imply a cultural bond, shared values, shared language, shared obligations, priorities on liberty etc.
We don't give noncitizens most rights that would be considered "inalienable" for citizens. If being a citizen isn't an inalienable right for anyone, then no rights are inalienable for anyone, since they are conditional on citizenship. Is there anyone who, in your view, has the "right" to be a citizen? If it's based on their parents being citizens, then do their parents have the "right" to be citizens?
If someone is born with one parent living in Country A and another parent living in Country B, do they have a right to live anywhere? If neither country wants them, should they just throw themselves into the ocean? What if their parents aren't citizens of any country? And if someone is born to parents in an extremely tiny country, do they only have inalienable rights on 0.01% of the globe?
I guess it could be argued that countries are like private property to some extent, but if 99% of roads, public spaces, lakes, etc. were privately owned by corporations and people could only access them at the permission of the owners, I think you would probably object to that. But that's kind of how countries work. And by extension, no rights are really considered inalienable, they're based on a bureaucratic designation that can be taken away at any time.
For reference, the American colonists weren't considered British citizens, which implies that a lot of the grievances they had against the British government weren't really justified. Presumably if they didn't like paying taxes to the British crown with no representation, they should have just left British territory.
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@WyIted
Anyone else I should deep dive?
Yeah, every player.
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@Mharman
Your logic applies even more so to Wylted btw
He went into detail reading you.
I don’t have the time. I’m busy
But you had time for 20 fluff posts?
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@Mharman
Just give a detailed reads list or something. Why do you think I'm scum? I should have read your posts last game, and I'll do it now if you give some detailed analysis. Really, I'm not trying to make this hard.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
At this point, I'd rather pursue a lynch on Mharman than go after anyone else for a claim. I mean, if his claim can prove his innocence, he'll give it before we lynch him anyway.
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@Mharman
Then what are your thoughts on my role claim?
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@Mharman
Just full claim at this point. I think I should get a say here since I took one for the team and gave up my role pretty willingly. And we don't have much time left.
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@ILikePie5
I'm the enabler. When I die, the doctor role stops working.
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@iamanabanana
I do want more activity from you though.
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@ILikePie5
@Casey_Risk
Pie and Casey should say "town lean," sry about that. But percentages are as intended.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
@iamanabanana
Reads List 2.0
I’m assuming a 7v2 setup. Each player is assigned an estimated probability of being town based on how towny or scummy they are. The average probability of being town is 75%, since there are 6 town players left besides me and 2 scum players left.
Lunatic
- Town Lean (76.8%)
- Playing as Town: Castledp1, JFdp1, JFdp2
- Playing as Scum: Chessdp1, Chessdp2, Chessdp3
- #38, #47, #49 - TL - This comment indicated that Luna paid a good deal of attention to the posts he responded to, which I think is generally pro-town. Scum can joke around too, but they might be more likely to skim, especially if Wyled’s comment doesn’t look particularly opportunistic. Plus jumping around topics indicates a more natural and genuine train of thought.
- #40 - TL - Saying this almost as an afterthought indicates it’s probably not a strategic move.
- #151 - Slight SL - Could be opportunistic to defend a player for town cred without actually defending them, I’d expect more scum or town reading from Luna as town.
- #212, #214, #215, #216, #218 - TL - This detailed level of analysis is towny since none of it seems opportunistic.
- #232, #236 - TL - These town reads don’t seem opportunistic.
Wylted
- Town Lean (76.8%)
- Playing as Town: JFdp1, JFdp2, CoDdp1
- Playing as Scum: Castledp1, GSdp1
- #24, #30 - TL - Wylted draws attention to himself here, which would be a risk as scum, and these thoughts read genuine overall. There’s also a bit of nuance jumping from one subject to another, which I think scum would tend to avoid.
- #31, #33 - TL - Changing his mind without being asked also seems genuine here. It could be a scum play but doesn’t seem as likely.
- #43 - Slight TL - Insulting a player like this is a pretty big risk for scum to take.
- #63 - Slight TL - I think not reading the original post is a town tell.
- #142, #143 - SL - Opportunistic accusations with no details explaining them, could be a low-effort scum play
- #145 - TL - Different but in a towny way, I like this amount of nuance and it makes the comment seem more genuine
- #148, #150 - TL - These explanations don’t seem forced
- #164 - SL - A bit opportunistic to start on this when he’s just been accused by Pie. Feels a bit like an intentional distraction.
- #195 - TL - I don’t see WyIted putting this much effort into a read if he doesn’t actually believe it.
- #195 - Slight SL - WyIted was in this game and knew it was the last one Mharman played as town, he should have spotted Mharman saying “here” first thing that game.
- #230, #231 - TL - A good deal of effort than isn’t surface-level.
- #238, #239, #240 - TL - If WyIted were just scum here, I don’t see him caring enough to explain his actions to this extent.
Casey_Risk
- Scum Lean (76.0%)
- Playing as Town: SKdp1, SKdp2, SKdp3
- Playing as Scum: Gunplaydp1, Gunplaydp2, Gunplaydp3
- #34 - SL - I think a town member would be slightly more likely to avoid trusting AI, but a scum member might want to give themselves plausible deniability for getting it wrong, or just not be super concerned with accuracy since they can decide on a claim later. Or scum might not even use AI but say they did hoping it sounds genuine.
- #71, #79 - Slight TL - Given that Casey mentioned the signups page and nothing about WF’s first post, I think this indicates they haven’t paid too much attention to which roles are available for fake claims.
- #141 - TL - Reads seem detailed and genuine, if this is scum there’s a lot of effort being put in to seem towny, more than I’d expect.
- #209 - TL - A good amount of effort is put into analyzing WyIted, I don’t think scum would devote this much time to such a task.
- #260 - TL - Defending me and WyIted doesn’t seem opportunistic, and it would be easy for Casey to try to plant seeds of suspicion.
iamanabanana
- Town Lean (75.6%)
- Playing as Town: Governorsdp1, Governorsdp2, Governorsdp3
- Playing as Scum: GSdp1, GSdp2, GSdp3
- #113 - TL - I like that this post seems to have more thought put into it than banana’s first post last game, and I think scum would be less inclined to town read other players
ILikePie5
- Scum Lean (75.2%)
- Playing as Town: JFdp1, JFdp2, TRdp1
- Playing as Scum: TVdp1, TVdp2
- #60 - TL - This attempt at identifying a theme split seems genuine enough and not really aimed at getting town cred. Indicates a good deal of effort into thinking through possible mechanics.
- #117 - Slight TL - Not a huge risk, but generally in line with what I think helps the town rn
- #133, #140 - SL - Random accusation and low-effort reaction test, plus early town block with little justification or apparent effort behind them. Could be lazily faking his meta.
- #147 - Slight SL - While I kind of see where Pie’s coming from, this is a big leap to make from one post. Looking through old games, Pie tends to jump onto lynches opportunistically and make demands of players more rashly as scum.
- #243, #244, #245, #249 - TL - Pie is more thoughtful than usual and less aggressive than he could be, which I think is a town tell.
- #254, #255 - TL - I like that Pie is moving things forward in a pro-town way, and this doesn’t particularly benefit him if he’s scum
Mikal
- Town Lean (75.2%)
- Playing as Town: JFdp1, Riddledp1, Riddledp2
- Playing as Scum: Ozarkdp1, Ozarkdp2, Ozarkdp3
- #124 - Slight TL - Counterintuitively, I think I’ve usually seen this kind of defensiveness come from town. But a very slight read.
Earth
- Scum Lean (74.4%)
- Playing as Town: CoDdp1, CoDdp2, CoDdp3
- Playing as Scum: RRV2dp1, RRV2dp2, RRV2dp3
- #23 - TL - Being slightly hostile like this right out the gate comes off as genuine, since it has little strategic advantage.
- #58 - TL - I agree with this, and there’s not a super strategic reason for Earth to defend Pie here as scum, especially since he could just post less which is his meta.
- #70 - SL - Post indicates that Earth has paid close attention to what can be in the game. I think that’s slightly more likely from scum, especially since Earth doesn’t tend to be a super active player.
- #137 - Slight SL - Earth isn’t actually giving anything up here, and I don’t see another response he could give that didn’t raise obvious suspicion. The fact that he qualifies it with “moving the game along” might be an opportunistic attempt to gain town cred.
Mharman
- Scum Lean (69.9%)
- Playing as Town: JFdp1, JFdp2, JFdp3
- Playing as Scum: CoDdp1, CoDdp2, CoDdp3
- #4, #5 - TL - I think that scum would be under more pressure for their first post and keep it simple, not instantly make a reference to religious literature before voting someone without a good excuse.
- #7 - TL - I don’t think scum would focus on looking into player activity like this, plus switching the vote very confidently.
- #12 - Slight SL - I do think making a joke like this can be a way of “breaking the tension” as scum when posting a lot to avoid being scum read, but this is a very slight indicator.
- #14 - Slight SL - I think it benefits scum here to put pressure on another player like this, especially since Mharman has already voted and arguably needs to justify it.
- #45, #46, #50, #57 - SL - A bit surface level, could be faking genuine conversation. In this case jumping topics isn’t towny since it doesn’t show a lot of thought into scum hunting.
- #51, #53 - TL - High effort here is towny, especially jumping from another subject, and I think Mharman’s reads were a bit less detailed as town.
- #93, #94 - TL - I think the read on me is fair if Mharman thought I didn’t have any reads written yet (and I did promise them before going back and realizing my pg 3 reads were inaccurate last game).
- #104, #106 - TL - Explanations for these actions seem genuine
- #129 - Slight SL - Passing the buck to try to get other people to accuse someone is sometimes a scum move, but then this could also be genuine town. I think this is only slightly more likely to come from scum.
- #208 - SL - I tend to see reaction tests come from scum as lazy way to see like they are scum hunting.
- #210 - SL - I think town Mharman would put in more effort than just town reading someone for not scum reading him
- #220, #221, #225, #226 - SL - Very surface-level analysis that doesn’t reference much to justify it.
- #256 - SL - More reads that seem more opportunistic and vague than useful.
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@ILikePie5
I’m fine pressuring Savant for a full claimVTL Savant
I'm Salmonella. Will give my role if enough people demand it.
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@David
This is going to be the purpose of groups. My vision for groups is that admins can create their own moderation policies within reason and create their own mini forum.
So categories will basically be like subreddits?
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@Lunatic
as opposed to just saying "This person feels town or scum" Does the percentage really impact the reads much? I just wonder if all that extra effort and coding is worth it in the end.
It's not really that much work. If I had to say "this person feels town or scum" I would just end up hyper focusing on a few points, there's no way to intuitively account for dozens of pieces of information while also accounting for biases.
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@Lunatic
How does your rating thingy work? I don't get it. Like you have two town reads on pie, two scum read posts from pie, and you list him at "null 75%". Where does the percentage come into play, and why isn't that 50/50? You the go on to say that he is your biggest scum read? I just don't understand how the maths work, and what exactly factors into the percentages.
The code is pretty complicated. Basically the strength of each read is shifted toward town or scum to the point that makes the average probability 75% to account for subconscious bias. Before the shifting, everyone starts at 75%, but a town read for example works like this:
def inc_town_at_index(index, significance):
odds_town = odds_of_town[index][1]
odds_scum = 100 - odds_town
odds_of_town[index][1] = 100 * (odds_town * significance) / (odds_town * significance + odds_scum)
odds_town = odds_of_town[index][1]
odds_scum = 100 - odds_town
odds_of_town[index][1] = 100 * (odds_town * significance) / (odds_town * significance + odds_scum)
The math isn't that important to understand, just know that the avg odds of being town is 75% and reads shift that up and down.
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@WyIted
It's your own fault you didn't include the last one.
Well I'm not gonna include every single game those people played. It's a quick reference, but it's not entirely deterministic.
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@WyIted
Why are you defending the fluff that is inconsistent with his town game
I'll take another look but you posted a lot of things.
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@WyIted
Looked through Game Shows mafia where Mharman is town. "Here" is the first thing he says. How did you not look at the literal last game Mharman played? Especially one you were also in?
Also his reads in that game were not super decisive.
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@WyIted
I have a fucking life bro.
Ok, then all we have is a single other game where Mharman said "here" and happened to be scum.
However, I do think you may be onto something with the "strong reads" clue. I'm gonna look through past Mharman games and see if that's a consistent tell.
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@WyIted
just a fluff post meant to make conversation, Notice in the post after he says "Here" and I shit you not when Mharman says "here" he is always scum.
How big is your sample size? Have you looked at the last 10/20 games Mharman has played and confirmed this is true for all of them? If not, I don't see this as super significant.
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@WyIted
he is town and notice how he doesn't say "here" in his first few posts. Seriously its a scum tell and its stupid that the tell is 100% accurate but with Mharman it is.
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